Gov. Phil Bryant spoke at the groundbreaking of Mississippi's new Civil Rights Museum next to the state flag containing the Confederate battle symbol. Myrlie Evers-Williams, the widow of slain Jackson civil-rights hero Medgar Evers, is visible below the flow. Trip Burns
Wednesday, October 30, 2013
Ah, the flag. The Mississippi State flag is like that obnoxious relative at a family gathering. He's offensive, disrespectful and not representative of your family's values at all—one hopes—but he's not going anywhere anytime soon. So you put up with him.
Last week, JFP photographer Trip Burns drew national attention when he shared a brilliant piece of photojournalism with the world. When Tyler Cleveland's story about the ground-breaking of Mississippi's new museums, including a civil rights museum, went up at jfp.ms/museums, so did Trip's photo showing the jarring symbol of the Confederacy flying in the foreground with Gov. Phil Bryant at the mic and Myrlie Evers-Williams, former Mississippi Supreme Court Justice Reuben Anderson and state Sen. John Horhn sitting behind the flag.
The latter three are, of course, African American, and Evers-Williams saw her husband Medgar gunned down five miles northwest of the new museums in 1963. The Confederate battle emblem that still appears in our state flag was the hateful symbol preferred by the man who executed Medgar as well as that of his buddies in the Citizens Council and the Ku Klux Klan.
It was, and still is, a symbol of resistance against integration and equality for blacks in our state and nation.
No, wait! ... some will yell. It's a symbol of heritage, and of respect for southerners who died in a war fought not over slavery, but for economics and state's rights.
Right. This state's and other Confederate states' right to own and use human beings in order to increase their wealth—the economics of slavery was exactly what the Civil War was about.
It's remarkable to me how many people have been told something different—and choose to believe it. But I'll be honest: Even though I never had any doubt about what the Civil War was fought over—at least as an adult—it wasn't until a decade ago that I first read the evidence no one can deny. After some or another debate on the JFP website with a slavery apologist, my nephew-in-law emailed and asked me if I had read Mississippi's Declaration of Secession. I hadn't. And I sure as hell hadn't studied it back in history class at Neshoba Central where I should have learned it, just as every student in the state (or nation) should before getting a diploma.
Mississippi's Declaration of Secession pulls no punches:
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.
"These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."
And Texas' secession explanation is even more blatant, along with all the others of Confederate states. If you want to see a slavery apologist go radio silent on Facebook, just drop the link and the opening section into a comment. The silence is deafening.
What some folks also don't seem to realize is that the Confederate cross, enshrined in our taxpayer-funded state flag, was the symbol of defiance for those who believed that "a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." First, in the war and then afterward, whether waved by the first round of the Ku Klux Klan, created to scare blacks out of claiming their new rights, and then for decades by whites trying to intimidate blacks out of voting, integrating schools and daring to walk proudly through the front door.
Put another way, today's taxpayers pay to embed that heinous symbol in a state flag that flies outside office buildings, museum ground-breakings and public schools that, too often, have almost totally re-segregated.
What's interesting is to watch reactions among many white people when you try to discuss why the flag needs to be inside the museum, not waving outside on behalf of us all. "It's just a piece of cloth." Right, so why do we all have to pay for it? And is the American flag "just a piece of cloth"? Of course not. Flags matter. We all know that.
"It's tradition." Yes, the worst kind, and it hurts us all, some much more than others.
"I don't mind it." Well, go ask yourself why you don't mind it. And don't you care about how black people feel in the state with the highest proportion of African Americans. They don't get a voice?
"Voters overwhelmingly voted to keep it there." So? Rights have always been about that of the individual, not the majority, by necessity. And what might have happened if more people were educated about the flag's true origins, not to mention what the dang secession declaration proves about slavery?
What if we challenged the revisionism in an honest, deliberate, direct fashion?
Here's the rub for me personally, not to mention for many others of all ethnicities. I'm not black, and I'm still offended to the core by that flag every time I see it. It's used by politicians to play coded race politics (textbook "southern strategy") to get racist votes (ironically, for policies that don't benefit many of the presumed racists).
It's despicable to watch politicians—including Haley Barbour and Phil Bryant, who spoke at the ground-breaking—try to appeal to people they assume are racist. Why not help lead them another direction? Perhaps by leading on changing the flag?
Still worse, this state flag tells the world (and each other) that white Mississippians have not changed. We can protest all we want about what others think about our state—but we all bear the burden of those assumptions of the worst about us.
And why wouldn't they believe it when so many of us brag that we "overwhelmingly" kept that flag in place to represent us? Is this age-old game of defiance really worth painting ourselves as unchanged racists more than a century after we lost the war to keep slavery? Just who is living in the past here?
Ten years ago, I went to the old Capitol and listened as Evers-Williams gave her husband's papers to the state of Mississippi. I was inspired by her belief that Mississippi can and will change and leave the old ways behind us (or in a museum). I wrote then that Mississippians had to get on with fighting the "worthy scrap" of change until "that ugly symbol rots off the flagpole out of sheer irrelevance." (See jfp.ms/scrap)
I have seen that fight unfold, and it feels good. Our past is not past, yet, though, and it won't be as long as we as a state allow that flag to continue tainting and obscuring our progress. It is high time to take action and prove to the world, and ourselves, that Mississippi is a more civilized place these days.
Comments
geofchaucer 10 years, 6 months ago
That flag serves as a daily reminder of where came from, how far we have come, and how far we still have to go.
FirstLadyoftheConfederacy 10 years, 6 months ago
Really? We are being inflicted with ignorance yet again. First, learn some real history not the indoctrination you have received all your life in the public school system. Secondly, the citizens of the Great Sovereign State of Mississippi voted years ago to keep their beloved flag. Thirdly, go back to where you came from. We do not want your type here. What type is this you ask? Liberal, divisive troublemakers. I know I will not miss you and I can assure you 1000's more feel the same way. I find it amazing that those who make a habit of protesting the fact that in many cases, “multiculturalism” and “diversity” include everyone but native Southerners. Fourthly, you clearly do not understand what is means to be a Southerner. Being Southern means belonging; it means always having backup support; it means your place within the group is always yours. And lastly, Southerners are survivors. We are not and will not ever be ashamed of our heritage. Always remember Southerners are polite and gracious, but if you offend one of our own, gracious wrath can come down on your head. If you wish to be treated with respect, you must respect the people of The South and Mississippi. Do not come with the attitude that you need to change everything to suit you. I personally think the Flag of the Great Sovereign State of Mississippi has the most beautiful flag of all 50 Sovereign States.
pewestlake 10 years, 5 months ago
You're not "native southerners." The natives live on reservations now. You're also not polite or gracious AT ALL. That's a myth based on how you treat the people within your own tribe (and yes, you're part of a tribe). But when it comes to people who look, act or speak differently than your tribe, then you go on a tirade about being "inflicted with ignorance." The only people you're fooling are yourselves.
Also, Ms. Ladd gave you real history in the body of her post, namely the links to the actual transcripts of the actual secession papers. If anyone needs to learn some actual history, it's the ignorant slobs who describe the Civil War as the war of northern aggression, despite the FACT that it started when the South fired on U.S. troops at Fort Sumter.
Calling it the Civil War is being polite to Dixie. In reality, it was the putting down of a domestic insurrection by a bunch of lazy good-for-nothing leeches addicted to slavery and drunk on the power of holding other people in bondage.
TONYABEE343 10 years, 3 months ago
Well, you feel the way you feel, so be it! I wouldn't want to change you 'cause WE need to know exactly WHO you really are. That flag you love so much, is nothing but poison! And, you are free to drink of as much of YOUR POISON as you wish! You will soon find that the rest of Mississippi has evolved to a higher state of thinking, Ms. Thing!
donnaladd 10 years, 6 months ago
I come from Neshoba County, Miss., First Lady. Y'all are stuck with me, girlfriend. Mississippi bred me and so many others who think exactly as I do about the flag.
And I'll "come with" any attitude I damn well please. People with attitudes like yours don't own Mississippi or the South, although the rest of us and the world have believed it for far too long. It's our home, too, and we're not going anywhere, nor is it up to you to try to silence us. You're barking up the wrong Magnolia tree over here.
RichardBohlman 10 years, 5 months ago
Well stated!
Levi 10 years, 5 months ago
Donna, You lied when you claimed slavery was the justification of the ordinances of secession in "all the others of Confederate states." Absolutely not true. All the Southern border states went to war to stop an illegal invasion of their states by the federal government. Not really hard to understand.
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
@Levi Donna did not "lie." (She didn't even say exactly what you're saying she said.) You're confusing the Ordinances of Succession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinanc...">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinanc...) and the Declarations of Succession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reas...">http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reas...). All of the ordinances were legalese for ratification; the Declarations are four states' reasons for succession and rather overwhelming about slavery... if not straight-up white supremacy.
RichardBohlman 10 years, 5 months ago
Thank you both, FirstLadyoftheConfederacy and donnaladd for your great posts! God Bless Mississippi and our Great Dixie! Advance the Colors, Mississippi!
OpenEyes 10 years, 5 months ago
Slavery never ended, so why should its symbol? A far higher percentage of Americans live in slavery today than did in 1860. Try addressing the problem at its roots and stop focusing on the leaves. The borrower is slave to the lender, and most Americans live their entire lives in debt.
Pick your job. Pick your home. Vote for your congressman and president. Pay taxes. Never own the means of production or the write your own paycheck. Never own the house or the land around it. Face prison, fines and harassment if you don't fall in line with the ever-growing list of laws and rules of the ever-growing list of government agencies. Watch the money you earned spent on corrupt, inefficient and illogical programs and unlawful, unsupported and unnecessary wars. Blissfully love the comfort of your slavery. Never know freedom.
Scott1962 10 years, 5 months ago
That was an exceptional post
Beefmalone 10 years, 5 months ago
The fact is, NOBODY will ever change their opinion about Mississippi. We can put the Black Power salute on our flag and we'll still be a bunch of inbred rednecks to Yankee outsiders like yourself. So spare us your white liberal guilt and crusade against something that might really prove beneficial.
pewestlake 10 years, 5 months ago
White liberals outsiders, like me, have no guilt about Mississippi whatsoever. Not only do we not care about your self-aggrandizing pity parties, we don't actually think about you at all, unless we happen upon a story like this.
Why bother being concerned with Mississippi? Everything you do there gets varnished with a healthy dose of white supremacy and eventually turns to crap. Your state and the people who defend its racist history are, to put it politely, a total waste of time. I've already wasted enough time on a state that consistently provides zero contributions to the greatness of America but I thought you should know. Nobody cares what you think. Nobody.
Scott1962 10 years, 5 months ago
And yet, with your endless days of meaningful social restructuring and plagiarizing the Huffington Post you still found time to track down the source, open an account, think up an intelligent username, then run back to your email to verify your account. An why? So you could stun the uneducated redneck masses with your articulate and no doubt carefully researched post. One is which you tell us you don't care and we don't matter. And the ironic thing is you did it all without being asked or invited. I'll bet you're a literary star when you find something you actually do care about aren't you son?
Well I for one certainly applaud your efforts and thank you for making me want to wake up tomorrow and be a better person in hopes that one day...you will care about us. Tell you what though..... just for fun there pewestlake, I couldn't help but notice you didn't mention what state you live in. Could I possibly inconvenience your otherwise meaningful day by asking that you post that little tidbit of information? I'm sure I'll have to look it up but I would be interested to know where that hidden little part of paradise is. That place where everyone is colorblind and the past is so clean that it allows someone like yourself to feel it's perfectly ok to self righteously generalize an entire state without even a hint of hypocrisy. I'll be waiting for you reply
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
If anyone reading this wants to help form a think-tank to figure out how to get the flag changed once and for all, shoot me an email: [email protected]
To paraphrase Medgar: If not us, who?
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Beefmalone, what in the world does anyone being liberal or conservative have to do with taking the symbol of slavery and segregation out of our state flag!?! That makes no sense and, in fact, tars conservatives unfairly. I know plenty of conservatives who don't want that flag up there. I think it's high time we stop mixing up conservatives and racists. They're not one and the same.
And you're absolutely wrong about what yankees will think of us if we do the right thing (and how could you know, being that as a state, we've so seldom done the right thing on race, poverty, education and so many other issues!?!).
I get as frustrated as any southerner about the prejudices out there against southerners from people overlooking problems in their own backyards. But we've published this newspaper for over a decade and have gotten immense, respectful national and international attention for efforts to do the right thing--from helping put an old Klansman in prison to calling out the costly boondoggle of voter ID for exactly what it is.
When Mississippi decides to courageously stop forward and own our past enough to stop celebrating the symbols of its worst parts, the whole world will notice. It will help our business climate, it will bring NCAA championships here, it will help drop our brain drain, and it will make younger Mississippians much prouder to call this place home. And here at home, it will make us stronger because divides will narrow. There's a whole lot to be said for white Mississippians simply acknowledging the pain that our past, and the public symbols of it many whites still demand, causes for black Mississippians. That alone will do wonders for our state.
And, no, a black power emblem does not belong in the flag anymore than the symbol of the Confederacy does. We can agree on that.
We have the power to show the world what Mississippi is capable of, and we must use it. I promise you, the world will notice.
js1976 10 years, 5 months ago
".....and crusade against something that might really prove beneficial."
How is the economic future of this state not a "beneficial" crusade? I myself am not a Yankee, nor am I a liberal, but I see the problems associated with gloryfying our segregated past. I would personally like to see us move forward and maybe one day end the constant barrage of racist accusations thrown at this state and our citizens.
Our state always ranks towards the bottom in everything other than obesity. Why not take all of the necessary steps needed to bring in more investment, more economic growth, and more opportunity for the residents of Mississippi?
Just so you know, I cast a vote to keep our flag in 2001.
Scott1962 10 years, 5 months ago
Yeah it did wonders for Ole Miss didn't it? The fact is js1976, a lot of people profit from keeping that past alive in the name of "understanding". They aren't content to see the changes nor are they capable of believing a person can dislike another person without ever taking note of their skin color. No they must paint anyone who has no problem with the flag, one that was voted on by the citizens, as a racist. Don't kid yourself brother, it's not about black and white it's about green.
js1976 10 years, 5 months ago
Im curious to know how anyone profits from the stars and bars flying on our flag. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I can't really grasp how it is a profit center.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Nice post, js. You and I are going to end up somewhere yet, holding hands and singing "We Shall Overcome." ;-)
The irony about the assumption that I'm a "Yankee liberal," many actual yankees considered me too moderate, or even conservative, for their tastes when I lived up that way. I seem to remember somebody calling me a "moderate-right yuppie" at one point in print.
Everything is so relative. But we should at least all be able to agree on the stupidity of keeping that flag flying on the public's dime in the 21st century; just pick a reason. Especially the libertarians in our midst.
bill_jackson 10 years, 5 months ago
I have always been of the opinion that had we been given a different choice other than the proposed new flag that election would have turned out differently. Personally I would have no problem going back to the old "Magnolia" flag. It is certainly better looking than the one they rolled out to try to replace the current one. Also, if I remember, voter turnout was low for that election.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Here's a bonus http://www.civil-war.net/pages/texas_...">money quote from the Texas Declaration of Secession. It's hard to put this kind of nasty horse back into the revisionist barn, no?
Don't you just love when someone tells you that the Confederacy and the Civil War (and, thus, its flag) had nothing to do with slavery, race or racism? They wrote stuff down then, too, you know.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
From South Carolina Declaration of Secession:
bill_jackson 10 years, 5 months ago
Yes, Donna, we get that. Stop beating a dead horse.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
No, Bill, not everyone gets it. I'm surprised you do based on your commenting history here. And perhaps you don't get that you don't get to tell me to "stop" doing anything. It's funny to watch you try to exercise some sort of privilege over me, though. Y'all make me chuckle with that brand of audacity.
Levi 10 years, 5 months ago
Why don't you post all the secession ordinances? Hmmm.
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
As I noted above, the secession ordinances and declarations" are two different things. The ordinances* were really one text ratified by each seceding state; the declarations were public reasons offered by four of them.
bill_jackson 10 years, 5 months ago
Nobody is trying to "exercise some sort of privilege" over you. It's just that you post the articles of secession stuff endlessly. That was in 1861. The rest of us live in 2013.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
And most people haven't seen or studied them, Bill, and many go around making dumbass comments that the Civil War wasn't about slavery.
Look in my eyes, Bill: You don't tell me what to do. And I will post what I want whenever I want on my site, no matter how much you wish I wouldn't. Capiche?
Scott1962 10 years, 5 months ago
Spoken like the fine, fair, and true journalist you are
bill_jackson 10 years, 5 months ago
By all means, post away. But I think you misjudge peoples' knowledge of American History. Just because someone chooses to not live in the past does not mean that he/she has no knowledge of it.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Bill, you're not even being logical. The insistence that we can't possibly remove the Confederate emblem from our flag of today and keep it in a museum IS living in the past. And many of the same people who will argue until they're blue in the face that the Civil War wasn't about slavery will argue that an homage to that war should stay in our taxpayer-funded flag. It makes no sense.
Now, if you understand that the Civil War was fought over slavery and still don't care that its emblem continues to be in our state flag, then at least we know you're not operating from a place of ignorance. I'm not sure that makes you look better, but to each his own.
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
@Bill, up-thread someone posted a ridiculous screed about how Donna should "go back where she came from" under the pseudonym "First Lady of the Confederacy."
Clearly some folks are still living in the past, or at least like pretending they are. ;)
And, for the record, I spent my entire childhood and most of my college career in Texas (at both levels they specifically taught "Texas History") and this thread may be the first time I've read the Texas Declaration of Secession. If I had read it before, I didn't remember the part Donna quotes above, so it's a good reminder.
Contextualizing the battle flag -- which is CURRENTLY in the Mississippi flag, not just something from the past -- makes a lot of sense to me... because clearly some of our educations (in and out of the state of Mississippi) skipped over some of the toughest parts of the truth.
A little learning can't hurt -- but if it bothers you... do what the old song says... look away! :)
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
At the risk of really ticking billjackson off, someone just reminded me about http://teachingamericanhistory.org/li...">Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' 1861 speech in Savannah explaining the causes of the Civil War. Here's part of it:
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
continued ...
bill_jackson 10 years, 5 months ago
I'm not debating the primary cause of the Civil War. Anyone who believes it was anything other than slavery is wilfully ignorant. Nor am I saying the flag should remain as is. It's just that MS has a lot more pressing issues that we should be concerned with.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Bill, we don't have to pick one issue to "deal with." The flag is a huge issue for our perceptions of ourselves and others' perceptions of us. It sows divisions and contributes to brain drain. It hurts us economically. It keeps some employers out. It is a vital issue to discuss. And if you'd hadn't noticed, it's not the only one we talk about so act like it is. This is one of very few if any columns I've written about.
You doth protest too much.
bubbat 10 years, 5 months ago
Donna- Did the North go to war to free slaves or to stop the Southern States from leaving the Union and taking the 75% of the Federal revenue that would go with them?
Didn't Lincoln say about the same thing at the 4th Lincoln Douglas debate in 1859 as Stephens did in 1861?
Lincoln- " I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing."
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Bubba, Lincoln's writings on the Civil War and slavery are fascinating -- especially when you watch their evolution.
If you hadn't noticed, the North's rationale for fighting the Civil War and freeing the slaves, which is complicated and varied and about wealth as well as genuine concern about human beings, is not the issue with us keeping the Confederate imbed in our state flag. And it is completely beside the point of this column, although many of you use it to try to change the subject away from hard truths.
The point is why the Confederacy, and the Confederate states, seceded and fought in the Civil War. It was to preserve the economic benefits of slavery as well as white "supremacy" over black people, as Confederacy Vice President Stephens so eloquently explained (see above). THAT is what the emblem in our flag represents, and THAT is what we as Mississippians need to finally freakin' face. He explained:
This sick thinking is what that flag stands for.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
And not to state the obvious, but the North was right on the question of slavery, which the Civil War was fought over. Does that mean that every northerner or every union soldier or every government official was on the union's side for the right reasons? Did the generals always fight fair? Of course not. That war was despicable on all sides.
But it was the right position to take, and the South refused to back down.
Now, did the north end up caving during Reconstruction, leaving decades of black codes, Jim Crow and Klan violence, all with the Confederate flag waving overhead? Absolutely. Were there northern slave traders and heathens? No doubt. Was the South unlucky due to the temptation of the riches that awaited in the rich sunshine under the hot sunshine that Mississippi said that only the black skin could bear? Of course. Would the same immigrants into "new" America have done the same thing up north had the climate been different? Probably.
But all of that, too, is beside the point of how despicable it is for the state of Mississippi to continue celebrating the Confederacy in our state flag like we're some 5-year-old sticking our tongue out at the teacher in kindergarten. Or some dude dumb enough to aim his pistol at his foot and pull the trigger.
bubbat 10 years, 5 months ago
Donna- Really wasn't commenting on the flag just wanted to ask you the questions. :)
You know, you really ought to let me off double secret probation, don't you think I have been on there long enough? LOL
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Nah, you've earned a lifelong membership. ;-)
Thanks for asking the questions and giving me the chance to answer. I've told you before that some people probably think you're a plant, Bubba.
Whether or not you intended it, your question happens to be one of the talking points that slavery apologists try to use to deflect the fact that South fought the Civil War to preserve slavery and white supremacy.
I'll probably do a future column on just those talking points, and knock them down one by one.
bubbat 10 years, 5 months ago
Nope, not a plant. Was a genuine question, because I had never heard your view on why the North went to war.
austinpharvey 10 years, 5 months ago
I agree with the sentiments conveyed in this article. As a recent graduate of the University of Mississippi and current young Jacksonian, I have seen my peers fly out of this state in search of anything more progressive than Mississippi. Brain drain is real, and if we can take even the simplest steps to stop the perverbial bleeding, we must.
Changing the Mississippi flag will not change Mississippi's history. Sadly, it will not right the wrongs committed over decades intolerance and closed minded bigotry. However, it is a step in the right direction.
If we want to help Mississippi, we have to take the small steps that will lead to collective change. We must keep those who can make a difference in Mississippi. We must convey that this state aknowledges the past, yet has moved far beyond it. Changing the state flag is one of these small steps, and if we as Mississippians cannot realize that fact, we are doing ourselves an injustoce.
js1976 10 years, 5 months ago
"Changing the Mississippi flag will not change Mississippi's history"
That's not the intent, and thats part of the problem. Many Mississippian's feel as if this is an attempt to change our history, hence the reason they fight to keep it so fiercly.
Johnson4 10 years, 5 months ago
Let me preface my statements by agreeing with you that Mississippi should change our flag. It is a symbol that the rest of the country does not and will never agree with in the ways that Mississippians understand it. However, I do not believe that you clearly understand the rationale behind those opposing its change.
For the people that oppose the change, the flag represents several issues that most people do not and will never realize. The Flag does not represent the institution of slavery or even the willingness of Mississippians to fight against its abolition. Instead, it represents the willingness of their relatives to fight for everything they believed in and to rebel against the general majority's desire to force them into changing their beliefs (which is what most people are trying to do now).
Secondly, the Flag represents a staunch reminder of the lack of effort by the rest of the country to give help in any way to the state of Mississippi. Why should Mississippi try to change its history when the rest of the country cares very little about our future. The majority of people outside of the South could care less about the well-being of our people or our culture. Its seems overwhelmingly arrogant of those outside the South to demand change when they offer no monetary or developmental assistance to our state to actually better the people. Instead, others offer demands and pretentious remarks in the effort to "make us see" what is best for our state.
So, I will finish by saying that, once again, I agree with your argument that the flag needs to be changed, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your argument that it will change the perception of Mississippi. As a whole, Mississippi is completely different than any other state in the country and those outside of the state refuse to attempt to understand it. Conversely, they demand that we change just as they did leading up to the Civil War (albeit justifiably so). Until somebody shows genuine interest in helping the state grow, I have a hard time believing that Mississippians will trust anyone outside of the state to tell us what we should do.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
it represents the willingness of their relatives to fight for everything they believed in and to rebel against the general majority's desire to force them into changing their beliefs
"Everything they believed in" that they were fighting for was the right to continue owning and hunting down and abusing slaves! They were "rebel"-ing against the majority's desire to force them into changing their beliefs that it was humane or moral or anything less than evil to own other human beings.
If you are right and people have still lulled themselves into believing that one can separate the willingness to fight for what they believed in from the fact that slavery is what they believed in -- then we need to bring a helluva lot of pressure on people to change their beliefs! Good golly! We can't coddle people who still think that way in the 21st century! That's a remarkable argument to make.
And if they, or you, can't see that people who want to change that damn flag have a "genuine interest in helping the state grow," I don't know how to respond to you. And I mean that respectfully because I can see that you are trying to be respectable.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
Another thing that strikes me about arguments like that is that it still takes the humanity out of what we're talking about: owning and abusing human beings. The curse we live under in the South is that the slave trade (and traders and buyers) did everything possible to make slaves inhumane to white people so that they could feel OK about the horrible practice. They didn't want to face what they were doing to other human beings. The Bible was even twisted to justify it. Yuck.
To this day, many people don't want to face what their relatives did to fellow human beings (which in many, many cases included rape). So when we talk about the civil war, it can't possibly be about slavery; it has to be about all the poor southerners who supported slavery and the white-supremacist caste system being offended that they couldn't continue doing those things. They fought under that flag to keep those institutions, and many died, and now we're supposed to be OK with the flag because their people fought under it to for the right to ... live in a slave state (if not have them). Can you see the pass that this argument gives to people?
It is unconscionable to ever take the humanity out of slavery and pretend that it was about "economics" and the right for southern states to do anything they damn well pleased. It is also unconscionable to take the humanity out of the state flag and refuse to see the pain that symbol causes so many people.
It's remarkable that white southerners embrace the symbol because the pain the war/reconstruction caused them, but will turn around and say that it's just a piece of cloth and why in the world would it offend black people (and other whites)?! This is remarkable selfishness at best. Southerners seceded and fought a war to keep slaves and lost--and they still can't get over the results? Do people today really wish the South had won?? It amazes me when someone tries to change the subject into questioning the motives of the north: seriously? I don't care if some yankees were in it for the wrong reason ultimately; what matters is that that horrible institution ended, even if the north and south together then allowed Jim Crow, black codes, etc., to turn us into terrorist land (and create the foundation for our inner-city problems today) through most of the 20th century.
donnaladd 10 years, 5 months ago
We all live under the burden of this dehumanization to this day, with the very different reactions to crime by and against people of different races and the assumptions made about people of different races. I know these habits and beliefs were drilled deeply into southerners during slavery and then Jim Crow times, but there is nothing about that that is justifiable. That burden of "lost cause" tragedy, and thus dedication to symbols of the Confederacy, is misplaced and is keeping this state on the bottom (and some others, too, but this is where I was born and raised, so it's the postage stamp I'm worried about).
It's seriously time for "lost cause" southerners to stop living in the past and lying to themselves and to each other about what the war and the Confederacy was about. It was about the right to buy, sell, torture and rape human beings--and the words of Confederate leaders prove it. It's time to learn that and use that knowledge to help move this state into a better future. If we can't get past these Confederate myths (and their symbols), we'll be stuck in time forever.
Scott1962 10 years, 5 months ago
I'm sure somewhere in all the comments someone's probably covered this, but just for a second let's forget about succession papers and the other politics of the Civil War. Yes, it was fought over slavery so let's get that out of the way. But Mississippi like the rest of the south was primarily made up of dirt poor rural farmers that didn't give a rat's ass about slavery, succession, or the politics of the wealthy. They were told that northern troops were coming to take their land away, slaughter and rape their families and ironically enough that's exactly what happened. I know it's a lot more fun to assume that a dirt farmer would take his sons and go give their lives hundreds of miles away just so some rich guy they didn't even know could keep his slaves. Just as it's much more fun, not to mention a good cover for lazy journalism, to keep up the stereotype of every single person in the south devoting all day every day to hating blacks and thinking of ways to keep them down but unfortunately that wasn't and isn't the reality.
They died trying to keep what was theirs in a war they had nothing to do with and cared nothing about. Why is it not ok to honor those people? Oh that's right, you moved away and found enlightenment and your calling to come back to Mississippi and tell us all what racist rednecks we are (imagine a woman from Neshoba county feeling socially superior to anyone) and speak for blacks everywhere who need a white woman to tell them how they feel. Take all that out of the mix and what I've stated was the reality. It's not very popular because logic doesn't move newspapers but it's the truth.
tsmith 10 years, 5 months ago
Truth it is.
Like I said above, only a rich few owned slaves, the average southerner that did the actual fighting was dirt poor and fighting to keep his property and his family alive.
DeoVindiceTennessee 10 years, 5 months ago
The fact that over 75,000 Federal troops were ordered to "suppress" the Southern rebellion still stands. Wether the states seceded because they wanted to preserve slavery or not should not really be the case for keeping or abolishing the use of the battle flag.
Our ancestors faught and died under that flag against a tyrannical usurper. That's a symbol of patriotism that will stand for all eternity, or at least until I take my last breath here in the bright sunny South.
Deo Vindice.
sandwichh 10 years, 5 months ago
Let's see... The USA flag flew over slave ships, not the Confederate flag. Slaves were set free in DC by paying the slave owners to let them go, but would not do the same in the south. Would rather kill Southerners. Yes, there were freemen, freed blacks, who owned black slaves in the South. Slavery was legal in the USA when the war broke out. Slaver was still legal under USA law 6 months, 1 year after the war started. The Emancipation Proclamation was about 1 1/2 years after the war started, only freeing the slaves in the states in rebellion. The KKK flew the USA flag originally. The largest KKK rally in history was nothing but USA flags and it was held in 1926 in DC. Ever hear how bad blacks were treated in Chicago, Detroit and such in the 20th century.
I'll rest now,... so much more to educated the low information types with.
jwc121401 10 years, 5 months ago
Changing the flag is not some magical fix that will change everything in Mississippi, make us better in education, reduce the rate of illiteracy, or change any other aspect of life there. Only the society of perpetually offended infantile adults that screech about this every couple years actually beleive this.
If you're ashamed of Mississippi, it's heritage, it's history, its flag, it's other symbols (the magnolia, the mockingbird, etc), there are 49 other states in this great nation to which you should move. Get an encyclopedia, look up state flags, find a picture of one that pleases you, and go. I'm sure nobody else in Mississippi would mind of you left for some other place that you find more culturally enlightened that our great state. I personally moved to Illinois 10 years ago, and for at least 5 of those years I've been desperately trying to escape this enlightened socialist paradise that has produced such great people Hillary Clinton and Blagojevich, and several other governors that found themselves spending their retirement in state or federal prison, but hey, we're enlightened and progressive.
The people of Mississippi voted for that flag and as many are fond of stating in this current political climate, "elections have consequences," and "it's now settled law." Despite what most "progressives" think, the state or federal government does not have the right to change something just because it thinks it knows better than the people who cast the votes. I know that most liberals (which you most likely are) think that you are more educated and therefore should be able to decide what is best for us despite what we want. While you're busy reading the articles of succession, pick up a copy of the constitution and read it and while you're at it, read the state constitution as well. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there about not having your rights infringed, and about states being able to make their own decisions regarding what happens within their own borders.
Nowhere in any founding document of the United States, or the State of Mississippi, does it say that you have the right to never be offended. You, and the rest of the people who want to change a flag simply because you don't like it, need to realize that the state, the country, the world does not revolve around you and your poor little feelings. Get over yourself. If you want to see things change in Mississippi, open your wallet and give to charity, spend your time in a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, or a halfway house. I do the some on regular occasion in illinois and will continue to do so when I make it back to Mississippi. Lastly, vote for someone who will actually make a change instead of being ignorant, braindead, partisan hack. Neither the democrats nor the republicans have the best interest of our state, or our nation in mind.
2010sequoia 10 years, 5 months ago
Amen, to FIRST LADY OF THE CONFEDERACY. I am a former educator. True SOUTHERN history is not taught. Estimates range from 1.5% to 5% of Southerners owned slaves. ..Southerners fought for their beloved SOUTH. PERIOD. I have been a genealogist for over 40 years. The overwhelming majority of my ancestors were poor sharecroppers. I personally know of no one that has ever been a slave, nor do I personally know anyone that has ever owned a slave. The same goes for being guilty of civil rights violations. Most Southerners, black and white are the nicest people I have EVER met. My family hails from several generations of Southerners, and I could not be more proud of this fact. Another point I would like to make is that most Africans were caught and sold by their OWN people. Would you say that African Americans are better off because of slavery? Yes, I would say they are. You have only to watch HOTEL RWANDA, THE LAST KING IF SCOTLAND, or BLOOD DIAMOND to answer this question. Before you put down another's heritage or beliefs, do a little studying.
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
@2010sequoia I must say, I'm profoundly glad to hear that you're no longer an educator.
Catch224you 10 years, 5 months ago
Confederate Flag The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, or NAACP, fought to ban the Confederate flag from the South Carolina Statehouse.
NAACP leaders have said the Confederate flag "supports the evils of slavery" and "represents terrorism." However, in his 1999 commentary, columnist Walter Williams argued, "It must be ignorance, an ignorance I once shared. The NAACP crowd sees the Confederate battle flag as a flag of slavery. If that's so, the United States flag is even more so. Slavery thrived under the United States flag from 1776 to 1865 and 100 years before that under the British flag in America. The Confederate flag flew a mere four years.
The birth of both US and Confederate flags had little or nothing to do with slavery. Both flags saw their birth in a violent and proud struggle for independence and self-governance.
[snip]
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
Blockquote
@Catch224you I cut your comment short because it wasn't clear whether you were quoting something and where the quote began and ended; a quick Google showed this same comment in many, many places around the Web, so I wanted to steer clear of reproducing an article whole.
I applaud you for at least being somewhat on topic. :) I think the fundamental flaw in equating the US flag and the Confederate flag is that the Confederacy was clearly formed for the distinct purpose of maintaining slavery within its borders, to the extent that slavery was written into its Constitution and into the articles of secession of the Southern states that wrote them.
Likewise, the length of time that the Confederate flag "flew" is irrelevant when you're discussing the Confederate battle flag that is part of the Mississippi flag, because the Confederate battle flag that is part of the Mississippi flag doesn't just represents the Confederacy, it also represents the Mississippi that has existing since that time.
The Confederate battle flag has flown over Mississippi, in this sense, for over 100 years, or, one might argue (if inclined to do so) over roughly 70 years of the Jim Crow-era Mississippi that it was meant to inaugurate, plus about 30 more during which it should have been put out to pasture.
Maybe it's time to move on? For the sake of "heritage" introduce a former flag -- the Bonnie Blue or Magnolia -- and then put this one in a fancy museum. (We're building two right now in downtown Jackson; both could use an example of the flag to explain its history.)
carolinarebel 10 years, 5 months ago
Mississippi’s Flag: A Blow at Civilization
What a pathetic article. And the management at this newspaper is paying someone to write this garbage and this is the individual's agenda. "A blow to civilization"? You are joking, right. You need to go study southern history, and I know you cannot be from the state of Illinois, the home of The Great Emancipator, Honest Abe. Even Abe's and his state of Illinois did not want blacks; but we in the south did and most of them are still here since the northern states would only allow a limited number of blacks. Abe himself thought blacks were inferior to whites. Why not let us southerners live in peace and leave our heritage alone. Read the book on "The Killing Fields of Cambodia" and ethnic cleansing and how to kill a culture then you will know the meaning of "A Blow to Civilization". Our southern states have had enough ethnic cleansing by northerners during the post-Confederate years, and writer's such as you who like to create racial problems. You have joined the ranks of the race baiters, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
Interesting that most southern states population and demographics are expanding due to migration from the northern states. The majority of the northerners, at least the ones I know, have no problems with our Confederate flag on the state capital grounds in Columbia, SC.
Here is Illinois stand on blacks during the Confederate War and the source:
*In 1847 a convention was called to write a new constitution for Illinois. Approved by the people in 1848, this new constitution forbade slavery, but the legislature wrote a new law banning free blacks from entering Illinois. In 1853 this new law laid a heavy fine on anyone bringing a free black into the state. Any blacks caught entering the state were subject to arrest and fine. If they could not pay the fine and the court costs, they could be required to pay with their labor. In many cases, free blacks were kidnapped and taken into other states to be sold as slaves. Slave holders could claim and repossess fugitive slaves simply upon payment of court costs. Despite restrictions and disabilities placed upon them, many free blacks contributed significantly to their communities.
~ Source: http://www.lib.niu.edu/1996/ihy960248...">http://www.lib.niu.edu/1996/ihy960248... John W. Allen, It Happened in Southern Illinois; John W. Allen, Legends and Lore of Southern Illinois; Alan Carpenter, Illinois.]*
tstauffer 10 years, 5 months ago
I let @carolinarebels comment through not to discuss or refute it so much as to display it as an example of the cogency one seems too often forced to suffer when this topic arises. (As a reminder, in case you just joined us, the article is about removing the Confederate battle flag from the Mississippi state flag in 2013 or thereabouts. As a general rule, you're also reminded to disagree agreeably. :)
bubbat 10 years, 5 months ago
Technically the Confederate Battle flag isn't on the Mississippi flag, it would be rectangle shaped if it, was nor is it the Confederate naval jack which was square. If you read the official description of the flag the saltire (Saint Andrew's Cross) and stars have nothing to do with the Confederacy but we wouldn't want a little thing like the truth to cloud ya'll opinions.
Official description of flag. § 3-3-16. Design of state flag.
The official flag of the State of Mississippi shall have the following design: with width two-thirds (2/3) of its length; with the union (canton) to be square, in width two-thirds (2/3) of the width of the flag; the ground of the union to be red and a broad blue saltire thereon, bordered with white and emblazoned with thirteen (13) mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding with the number of the original States of the Union; the field to be divided into three (3) bars of equal width, the upper one blue, the center one white, and the lower one, extending the whole length of the flag, red (the national colors); this being the flag adopted by the Mississippi Legislature in the 1894 Special Session.
bubbat 10 years, 5 months ago
Todd-"Maybe it's time to move on? For the sake of "heritage" introduce a former flag -- the Bonnie Blue or Magnolia -- and then put this one in a fancy museum."
Ah you not ok with the bars and stars on the State flag now, but you be ok with the Bonnie Blue, the 1st unofficial Confederate flag and the one the State of Mississippi raised over the Capitol the day Mississippi succeeded from the Union or the Magnolia flag the official Mississippi flag during the war? That make no sense to me.
donnaladd 10 years, 3 months ago
Did the Klan use the Bonnie Blue or other flags as their battle flags? I'm not aware of it if so.
bubbat 10 years, 3 months ago
Donna- Thought you were the self professed authority on the Klan. LOL Little hint do Google picture search for the Klan march in Washington D.C. in 1920s and tell me how many Confederate flags you see?
donnaladd 10 years, 3 months ago
Bubba, no need to do that. We can just go back into the 1960s archives to see that they used the symbol from our current flag to champion their cause of white supremacy and violence.
http://www.google.com/search?q=klan+c...">Or, hell, just Google.
And, no, I'm no Klan "expert": in fact, I know more about the upstanding (cough) Citizens Council, which was headquartered here in Jackson and also considered this flag a symbol of white supremacy. And the Americans for the Preservation of the White Race (often paid the legal bills for Klan killers).
And I'm not not enough white Mississippian in ignorant denial of what this flag stood/stands for.
Turtleread 10 years, 3 months ago
Correction on your story. No, we did not vote to keep our Mississippi flag, but that was the result of our votes. Did you see the flag that they proposed be the new Mississippi flag? NO historical roots, and very unappealing (at least to me). No choices either. It was this one, or nothing! (no change). It was the way the Democrats framed the question and presented it to the voters that caused it to FAIL! Here voters, you vote for this while we jam it down your throats. What did you think the reaction was going to be? Extreme Liberals do a disservice by misreading the state and its voters. You want to try it again, get more public input, perhaps set up a contest, then give the voters some choices.
Scott1962 10 years, 3 months ago
I didn't read through all the comments since I have a pretty good idea what they all say. So if this has already been mentioned please overlook it, but it's like this.... that flag has got to go. A lot of white southerners have very valid reasons for embracing it but it's time to realize that no one wants to hear those reasons. We live in a world incapable of seeing two sides to anything if it falls under political correctness, so just give it a rest.
What we do all have I'm sure are kids whether grown or not who have to make their way in this world as best they can. I don't know of any parent who doesn't want to equip their children with everything they possibly can in hopes of insuring a prosperous future for them. Standing by something the rest of the country can only see one side of does not bring industry to this state. It doesn't allow people who meet you when you travel to immediately have an open mind to what kind of person you are but rather puts you in a position of having to overcome an obstacle you shouldn't have to. It's like our governor who loves Jesus so much more than anyone else, some things just need to be left at home if you want to make an impression on the people with the power to make this state a better place. I think we can forget about our government doing it so it's up to the citizens to prove we're just a little bit smarter and a little bit more educated than they previously thought. Get past that part and a lot of industry can see the numerous advantages of building in Mississippi. The end result is a better future for our kids.
My children mean a lot more to me than that flag does and if a person cannot say that first and foremost then the rest of their argument had no credibility. Don't let the rest of the country continue to pass us by because we want to hang on to something NO ONE is going to sympathize with. Here's a good example, just think if Johnny Vaught had been willing to recruit black football players when the rest of the SEC did instead of trying to prove a point. Ole Miss may have remained the national power they were instead of getting excited over the Independence Bowl. Anyway... just my two cents.
MyraBlue 9 years, 8 months ago
I would never, every live in Mississippi. That state flag is disgusting. I would be thoroughly ashamed and embarrassed to live in such a backwards state.
Turtleread 9 years, 8 months ago
Then, you are thoroughly ashamed and embarrassed to live in the United States where democratic principles are the norm. You see, we voted on a new flag several years ago, and it was voted down, including in black counties! Now, which country would you like to be deported to, North Korea, Iran, Iraq?
Turtleread 9 years, 8 months ago
I believe the election for the flag should have included more choices. To my mind, we should have returned to the state flag before the stars and bars partial flag was adapted. I believe that flag was called the Magnolia Flag. It had a history and a history that was attached to the state. Otherwise, perhaps a contest could have been done for a new flag, but the flag they presented was way too busy, fruity, and had no appeal to me.
TNails50 9 years, 5 months ago
Do you see Germans flying Nazi flags to honor those who fought for the Third Reich? Virtually all modern Germans have acknowledged Germany's part in starting WW2 is a source of shame and disgrace. Rightfully so, they've retired the Swastika from official public life. In short, because your ancestors fought for cause doesn't make it noble.
Turtleread 9 years, 5 months ago
You don't see Germans flying Nazi flags in Germany because it is against the law in Germany to do so. No individual may own or display Nazi material (including flags) unless they are a collector and it is in their own home. Nazi material publicly is restricted to museums, libraries, and other authorized places. BTW, the victor generally gets to write the history so your last sentence might be right in this instance, but is not true in every instance.
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