Ellington

Start paying attention to who the strongest pro-war pundits are...Some us them are quick to hide behing their faux cloak off patriotism, while never actually being willing to DO anything or have anyone in their family DO anything. If they're so ready to fight, let's give em all a gun and send em to Iraq. Hell, lets send em to the border and see how tough they really are. TELL ME THIS DOESNT MAKE YOU THINK!!

Democrats:

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor-Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V,Purple Hearts.

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress.

Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.

Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve,1968-74.

Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,and Soldier's Medal.

Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne,Purple Heart.

Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

Chuck Robb: Vietnam

Howell Heflin: Silver Star

George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.

Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.

Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Republicans -(and these are the guys sending people to war-what makes them especially bad is that none of their kids serve either.. Talk about pimpin' these guys have been wrapping themselves around the war flag without ever taking a blow. Only an fool would fight for people like these guys. I am especially disappointed in all those who serve and still continue to vote for a body of people who routinely make budget cuts for vital resources needed by veterans. How many homeless vets do we see on our streets? hell I brought someone some food the other night because these idiots who are listed below talk a good game but aren't willing to back it up... Dick Cheney as well as 'America's Mayor' (Rudy G) who brought terror to Black and Brown people in New York never even volunteered

Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

Tom Delay: did not serve.

Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Trent Lott: did not serve.

John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business

Jeb Bush: did not serve.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

Vin Weber: did not serve.

Richard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Richard Shelby: did not serve.

Jon Kyl: did not serve.

Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got

assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S.

Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam,disappeared from duty.

Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.

B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star,Legion of Merit,

Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

John M. McHugh: did not serve.

JC Watts: did not serve.

Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback.

Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

John Engler: did not serve.

Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Punkass Pundits & Preachers (these are the guys who talk the most ####... Next time you see them keep them in mind as folks who do a lot of talking but won't back it up with their own actions.. They are the worst type un-patriotic scum of the earth..What makes these idiots so bad is that they are constantly calling other people's patriotism into question... Take special note of some of these cats on the list especially the sexual pervert who picture I put up... Fair and Balanced?? I think not.. How about Unfair and Scared as hell!

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.' i.e boil on his ass)

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Michael Savage: did not serve.

George Will: did not serve.

Chris Matthews: did not serve.

Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Bennett: did not serve.

Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

John Wayne: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

Ralph Reed: did not serve.

Michael Medved: did not serve.

Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot

back.)

Previous Comments

ID

116057

Comment

I think the list omits "super-patriot" and "border-fanatic" Glenn Beck. How could the list forge one who is soooo much more patriotic than the rest of us?

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-12-19T10:52:09-06:00

ID

116058

Comment

Excellent, Kaze. Man you're one insightful rapper. The part I loved the most about Michael Moore's Fahrienheit 911 was approaching congressmen and asking them to volunteer their sons or selves to help us out in Iraq. One Congressman ran so fast I thought the war had reached the capital. Those repugnants (aka republicans), by and large, be they congressmen, senators, media persons, talk show hosts or members of think tanks are all scared winches (coulter), punks, cissies or girly-boys. They won't fight knats from their smelly behinds in a real war. I would love to see Coulter in a street fight with another woman of any nature, race or kind. Coulter can barely walk straight yet she talks much crap. The good news is that citizens are fastly learning how badly they were tricked or duped by the use of national security, fear of communism, fear of socialism, fear of blacks and latinos, fear of a welfare state, et al, while simultaneously pushing no taxes or little taxes for the rich, little or no regulation for big business and corporations, oligarchy (gov't by a few), plutocracy (gov't by the wealthy). In other words, a government that scews the poor and middle class while turning back the acievements of civil right, the new deal, populist interest and progressive ideas. What an ugly cast of characters: George Bush, Karl "Chuckie" Rowe, Shoots Cheney, Opportunist Condo Rice, Rust Limpbaugh, Bill "Say Something Sexy to Me, Baby" O'Reilly, et al. You would think that anyone with any sense would be scared of these nefarious and evil people.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T11:27:07-06:00

ID

116059

Comment

Well ya know... re: Coulter. My mom always said the ones who talked the most s--t were usually either the first to run or the first to get their a---s kicked in real confrontation! You said it Ray, FEAR. Better than any man-made mindcontrolling device.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-12-19T11:34:17-06:00

ID

116060

Comment

Go Kaze.......good info...........this needs to be a Rap Tune......there's got to be a way.........

Author

ATLExile

Date

2007-12-19T12:05:05-06:00

ID

116061

Comment

Kamikaze where are the republicans commentators? I hope your findings haven't run any of them away. I bet they're checking your list for errors and compiling their own list. Those spineless fellows you listed above have nothing to lose by way of finances because even after losing elections or resigning in discrace, one of those republican think tanks, media outlets or republican benefactor will make sure they are rewarded handsomely for their efforts to turn back the hands of time. In the good old days following world war II, for a long time, we had a real semblance of equality in America among white folks (excepting black folks and American Indians, of course) . The rich wasn't as rich as they were before the war and now, comparitively speaking. Estate taxes, employment taxes, living wages, general overall fairness by the government and the New Deal programs while helping mostly everyone else, were kicking the crap out of the rich and super rich people. They wanted to see this change as quickly as possible, but it didn't happen until they got the second Bush and all the garbage he bought with him to help run the country. The rich finally saw a chance to purchase and control government but needed evildoers to help take control and keep it. They got Newt "I Got a Lady on the Side, too" Gingrich, Tom "The Capital Hill Ganster" Delay, Katherine "Cheating, Shunned and Schizo" Harris, Rick "I'll Do Anything" Santorum, Dennis "I Can't Stop Foley" Hastert, Bill "Send Blacks Back to Africa" Bennett, and many more to play vital parts. Thank God they were arrogant and self-destructive. These destructive eveildoers are still around though, and some is plotting a comeback some day in some way. Hopefully, the public will eventually cast them so far into the pits of hell that they can't return and harm the country and citizens any more.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T12:28:54-06:00

ID

116062

Comment

Hasn't the G. Bush thing been thoroughly debunked as a figment of Dan Rather's imagination? As for the rest of it, What's the point? I fail to see why this list should matter in public debate. I understand why you think it matters, but you're already biased.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-12-19T12:37:19-06:00

ID

116063

Comment

Hasn't the G. Bush thing been thoroughly debunked as a figment of Dan Rather's imagination? No, I don't think so. I think the journalistic methods discredited him, helped along by politicos, but that doesn't mean the allegations weren't true. (Kind of like Mike Fuhrman's idiocy helping O.J. to go free.) Someone else here probably remembers more than I do about the specifics on this, though. But it's lodged into my head that bad reporting techniques obscured what may well have been an important truth.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-12-19T12:41:10-06:00

ID

116064

Comment

Are you bias, kaze? Ironghost knows I'm not! I like republicans and Democrats equally.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T12:41:58-06:00

ID

116065

Comment

I've seen the above list before. Something, eh? Nothing like a bunch of chicken-hawk neo-cons sending our young men and women off to be killed without the proper equipment or help when they come home.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-12-19T12:42:59-06:00

ID

116066

Comment

I fail to see why this list should matter in public debate. Really? Maybe if you had lost a family member in Iraq, it might hold more meaning for you.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-12-19T12:44:08-06:00

ID

116067

Comment

Ghost, one reason it matters is that the republicans continue to blather about "national security". If they've had no military training, I don't understand how they can fully grasp any military situation. Also, the republicans blather about how they are the true "patriots". Yet, they ain't serving in the military. Line that up with the party that "believes in the sanctity of marriage", check out the number of divorces piled up by the republicans who are running for president, and they come off looking like a pack of hypocritical hypocrites whose words don't match their actions.

Author

kate

Date

2007-12-19T13:28:28-06:00

ID

116068

Comment

Add to that the fact that the guv'ment is mostly made of upper middle class white males, while the military is increasingly made up of lower class minorities, and the whole thing becomes repugnant.

Author

kate

Date

2007-12-19T13:29:48-06:00

ID

116069

Comment

How did you select who got on the list? I ask because, with a few exceptions, it looks like you chose only Democrats who did serve and only Republicans who didn't. If that's the case, the list only tells us that some veterans opposed the war, while some non-veterans were in favor of it. Which I think we all could have guessed. A more telling statistic might be the Republican vs. Democrat (and pro-war vs. anti-war) breakdown among current active duty military personnel.

Author

laughter

Date

2007-12-19T13:35:15-06:00

ID

116070

Comment

By now, I aver most of the citizens of the country can clearly see this group of republicans or neo-conservatives as the worst politicans that have disgraced this country in 50 years or longer. However, the "slow" South will need a few more years (or decades God forbid) to see what everybody else already sees, and to figure out how it can get some mileage out of the dire situation. Once the race card no longer works down south, this republican party is dead in the water for a long time. Even Lott and Pickering can see how dark and gloomy the horizon is for that party!

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T13:46:16-06:00

ID

116071

Comment

Kaze, where are you? Are you studying before taking on Law Talkin? I got your back! If you need me to get him just let me know.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T14:02:33-06:00

ID

116072

Comment

Law Talking guy, you would be hard pressed to find that many Republican law makers that actually served. You have Lindsey Graham and some others. But I think the point of the list was to show you that a lot of the ones that talk a lot of noise did not serve and a lot of the guys that are called cowards did serve. I did research on Rush and he claims he got a medical deferment, but was never seen by a military doctor, only his private physician. That was a legit way. But it seems odd that something that would have kept him from serving did not keep him from playing highschool football or sitting on his butt in the radio booth all these years. I have brought this list up to conservatives and they can not justify it. Cheney comes across as so tough and he got multiple deferments. What it says to me is that when their butts are on the line, its not that important, but when YOUR butt or your children's butts are on the line, they are all for fighting wars. The breakdown of active military would only tell who they support and not really speak at all to who they are following. Republicans have done a good job of convincing the military that they support them. It just seems that they support them in words, not deeds. I respect the person that did something much more than the person that talks. The military is trained to fight, and that is what they want to do. I think they like the politicians that turn them loose.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2007-12-19T14:13:20-06:00

ID

116073

Comment

I would feel real safe with Scalia, Rusk, Newt, Clarence and Hastert standing on the front line protecting me. All the enemy would have to do throw 5 hamburgers near them and they would all sit down to eat thereby handing over the whole country to the enemy. My apology for the bad joke because I need to go on a diet too.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T14:25:59-06:00

ID

116074

Comment

Kaze, Santa might be "making a list, checking it twice" but you have definitely found out "WHO'S NAUGHTY OR NICE." We need a draft. If a draf were implemented, the war would be over this afternoon. QUICK, FAST AND IN A HURRY!!!!!!!!!

Author

justjess

Date

2007-12-19T14:31:29-06:00

ID

116075

Comment

Please add a "t" to draf. My BAD!

Author

justjess

Date

2007-12-19T14:45:49-06:00

ID

116076

Comment

Don't worry, Justjess. If errors mattered very much or prevented the effectiveness of posts, 99% of mines would be deleted or muted. I've never written anything on here that I didn't find an error in upon re-reading it. But you don't want to be at my low level of discourse or communication.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T14:53:46-06:00

ID

116077

Comment

When I look at this list, LTG, I see most of the major neocons who sent us to war (including Feith), and many of the main political players on both sides when this list was made (a few years back). When it first came out, it was really poignant due to who was included on it. It's a bit dated now, but still says a lot, especially if you understand who all those people are and the role they played in shaping and targeting the "axis of evil." Not to mention the veterans who got swiftboated by chickenhawks. It would be good to do an updated list, though.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-12-19T15:20:45-06:00

ID

116078

Comment

Im back Ray..Your friendly neighborhood rapper had to actually get some music business handled today (go figure). but Im with you Ray except I DISLIKE democrats and Republicans equally LOL. Dislike may be strong. Lets say I don't trust them equally. they're politicians and politicians never get my trust. The list, as Donna pointed out has been circulating for a minute. I just got it today but it speaks to exactly what Ive been screaming since the last election and since Iraq jumped off...Most Republicans are hypocrits. the do-as-I-say not do-as-I-do types. They preach morality, war(which they guise as "protecting our country"), and less government but in reality only practice thosee when its convenient. And we all know they're one of the freakiest lots you've ever seen. That usually happens when you try to force religion, morality, and war on a people to sharp to believe you. Sure there are plenty of Repubs that served and plenty of Dems who didnt. Hell, clinton was probably just as shrewd at not going to war as Dubya was. But it becomes an issue for me when the most vocal of the war mongers have never served in the military AT ALL. Im tired of republicans, and Hannity, and Glen Becl , and Ann coulter etc. etc. Telling us that we"re unpatriotic or "traitors" because we question a senseless war or question immigration rhetoric or wish to give gays the same courtesies that we enjoy

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-12-19T15:21:27-06:00

ID

116079

Comment

>>and seriously dont give me the rhetoric of asking active military personnel...any person with sense GOD gave an icecube knows that a majority of active soldiers in the mix would say let us stay and win> thats what theyre TRAINED to do.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-12-19T15:27:28-06:00

ID

116080

Comment

Beck is supposedly an ex-dope addict, but I think he still on that smack considering how nutty he is. Coulter looks like she could be strung out already. Rusk is a known junkie. Hannity thinks he God. No one would think that unless high on something. David Vitter still wants a spanking. If his angry wife didn't do it already, the voters will next election. Don't even mention the bathroom or on the run lover (senator Craig).

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T15:45:35-06:00

ID

116081

Comment

All my "is" got left off above. Never mind.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-12-19T15:49:27-06:00

ID

116082

Comment

sure the list could be more complete. and maybe noted by pro-war/anti-war because, not everything is a political issue, and it hurts to see every divide based on that line, it doesnt foster any sense of harmony to do that. but it would be interesting to see how many pro-war have no relation to the military, no concept of the personal sacrifice (that i, admittedly, can only imagine) involved. and then compare that to all of the anti-war people who have more personal experience, knowledge of what it really means to go to war. good info, but to be fair, it would be best to see a lot more. maybe a break down of a list of senators, divided by opinion on the war, party line noted if you really want some bragging rights. although, its amusing to see the talk show hosts that have no idea what they are talking about. war is more than two nations clashing. it involves people.

Author

jrt

Date

2007-12-19T17:53:26-06:00

ID

116083

Comment

To be clear, I don't think the underlying message of the list is unimportant. I am frustrated by the naivete of the administration in managing the Iraq war, and I think a lot of that owes to a lack of military experience. But the message would be more compelling if it weren't susceptible to charges of cherry-picking. That is, if you could point to an objective, fair criterion for picking who gets on and who doesn't. That's all.

Author

laughter

Date

2007-12-20T14:40:16-06:00

ID

116084

Comment

i think the notion of cherry-picking misinterprets the choices made for inclusion in the list. The list notes those who are often most vocal in the conversation of war. Admittedly, the contextualization of the list as Dems versus Repubs leads to one to begin thinking in terms of "Well how many pro-war military Repubs were left out?" but i would point out that inclusion is based on being a strong pro-war pundit and not just a Republican who votes pro-war. The converse seems to be the implication on the Dem side. Of course this could have been framed better - but the conversation hardly benefits from wondering who the pro-war Repubs with military backgrounds were left off. It speaks glaringly that no names are mentioned as obvious Repub omissions. The names listed are recognizable as the most hawkish and i cannot think of any ex-military pro-war Repubs who were vocal about going to war who were left off. As for non-military anti-war Dems being left off, it is hardly the same thing. In fact, it is the inverse of the situation - they are staying out of something they know little about rather than getting into it.

Author

daniel johnson

Date

2007-12-22T02:25:34-06:00

ID

116085

Comment

How is speaking and voting against the war "staying out of it"? Also, your "most hawkish" criterion is just wrong. There are plenty of lukewarm Republican supporters of the war on that list. And plenty of outspoken anti-war Dems who were left off. I mean, George Pataki is fair game as an uber-hawk, but Dennis Kucinich is just politely minding his own business?

Author

laughter

Date

2007-12-26T10:01:01-06:00

ID

116086

Comment

i would say you are as correct in your critique of my comment as i am in making the comment. i would say that essentially the thrust of the context the information was presented in has a dynamic of truth insomuch as it speaks to the willingness of politicos to go to war in relation to their direct experience with military service. We can pick this list apart til the troops come home. The fact remains that many of our politicians are characterized in our cultural conversation with complete disregard for their past military experiences. It might do us good to reflect on this credential when someone is suggesting to our enemy to "bring'em on".

Author

daniel johnson

Date

2007-12-26T21:06:49-06:00