Ellington

"What do you mean?"

"Well..." He wrinkled his eyebrows a little, then pushed his hat back on his forehead with his thumb. He always does that when he's nervous. "I just think you're throwing it away. You're special. You can communicate with people--people you agree with, people you disagree with."

"But I still do that."

"Not as well. I don't like the company you're keeping these days, Tom. Let's face it: By their standards, you're a pretty boring guy. You don't drink, you don't screw, you're never out that late. Always back home to your 'folks.' And that's fine. That's good and noble. But..." He paused for a minute, bit his lip, and looked me squarely in the eyes. "But the moonbats don't respect that."

"I haven't really caught any flak about it before..."

"Yeah, but they're loose people, Tom. Loose men, loose women-- Hey, mind if I smoke?"

I smiled. "'Course not."

He lit a pungent cigarillo. I've never smoked, never wanted to smoke, but I like the smell of cigars. When other people are smoking them. He took a few deep puffs, then looked down, pausing thoughtfully.

"Tom, I ever tell you that they're the subset?"

"I'm sorry?"

"They're the subset, Tom. You're the superset."

"I don't get it." I always hate it when he talks like this, because I knew he was about to explain something to me in a way that would make me feel really stupid. He's a brilliant guy, in every sense of the word. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I don't have the kind of natural grasp of things, the natural genius, that he does.

"Tom, in mathematics, a subset is a category. Let me give you an example. The religious right."

"Jeez, Luce, I'm flattered already."

He grinned. "Oh, I know how much you love those guys, Tom. But it's relevant here. The religious right... Up until 1980, they were off doing their own thing. The Republicans--fiscal conservatives, state's rights people--were basically off doing their own thing. But then..."

"Reagan."

"Exactly." He smiled, tipping the end of his cigarillo on the ashtray as he bent to sit down. "Reagan. Reagan was the superset that united the subsets. Four million evangelical voters, Tom. FOUR MILLION. And the Republican Party has pretty much owned the White House ever since. Well, people like you, you're like liberal Reagans, Tom. You can see the big picture. And there aren't as many of you. There aren't as many as there used to be."

"Thanks." I meant it. It was a sincere compliment--or at least a compliment I agreed with. No, no, I'm sure it was sincere. "But I still have lots of conservative friends--"

"And some of my best friends are black." His lips tightened, and his blue eyes turned icy. "Let's get serious here. You're taking sides." He stood up, but I didn't feel threatened. I knew it was a subconscious gesture; he always stood up when he was about to give a speech.

"I'm taking my own side, Luce."

"You're a LAPDOG! A f--" he stopped and turned his head to the side, realizing that someone might hear him curse. A faint ironic smile flashed across his lips before they tightened again. "You're a damn lapdog. You're being pushed around by all these activists. You're not thinking clearly. You're not thinking for yourself."

"No, I'm thinking for myself. I don't know how to do anything else."

"Oh, I know you don't mean to be a lapdog, Tom." He snuffed out the cigarillo and sat back down. "But it's the culture. The culture is starting to affect you. The people you hang around with on the left--they're not like you. They drink. They sleep around. Hell, a good number of them probably smoke pot. And they have no credibilty. They're going nowhere. Just living their lives idly, from pleasure to pleasure, until they die."

I started to get annoyed, because I recognized the old pattern. Luce and I went as far back as I could remember, and this was something that I knew went with the territory: He liked to try to draw a wedge between me and other people. I hate this about Luce. But it keeps me honest, right?

I looked down for a second at my coffee. It was close to room temperature by now--that's what happens when I drink coffee out with friends. It gets cold by the time I remember it's there. "Luce...," I paused, measuring my words carefully. "Luce, they're good people, most of them are. They're not really all that wild. Liberal activists, Luce? A cup of chamomile and a nice Stephen Ambrose book. Half the time that's their wild and crazy night. Every now and then-- but what's wrong with that? Look, I'm not all that great. I don't do that because I'm a pretty boring guy. I'm a homebody. I like a structured life. I like comfort. I'm not very experience-oriented. If I was more like that, I'd probably be pretty wild, too."

Luce smiled. "No, you wouldn't." He stared at me for a moment and enjoyed the uncomfortable silence. "Tom, why do you think they're pro-choice?"

"Because they don't think the government should--"

"Bullshit!" He wasn't angry anymore. He was smiling. "They don't like accountability. Women, whoring themselves out every pause in the conversation, every chance they get, filling up their meaningless lives with pleasure. And if they get pregnant? Abort! The beautiful young things--"

He flipped his hands effiminately for emphasis, irritating me, then continued. "The beautiful, precious young things of the San Francisco bathhouses. They screw each other. And if they get AIDS? They want a cure! Welfare queen over in west Jackson, never worked a day in her damn life, six kids, wants a seventh. Why? Uncle Sam's gonna write her a bigger check! One of her boys idolizes thugs all his damn life, wears his pants so low he could put a catheter on his iPod, shoots up a sweet old lady and a cop, but no death penalty for him, nossir. Clemency! After all, it's not his fault! Not her fault either! So whose fault is it, Tom? Whose fault? Why, we're straight white boys, Tom, so I guess it's ours!"

I didn't know whether to be annoyed or amused. "You can't tell me that if you weren't born in a different family, you wouldn't do the same thing."

"And why can't I? You think we're all machines? Personal responsibility, Tom. Accountability. Rise above it or sink with it. You want to create a world where everybody's taken care of? Then you'll create a world where nobody takes care of himself. You know why people eat, Tom? Because they'd starve if they didn't. And they sweat because they'd die of heatstroke if they didn't. But why work? Why pull your pants up, put your gun down, and take charge of your life when the government is gonna take care of you?"

"We don't need a 'reason' to take care of people, Luce. People are people. If they don't matter, we don't, either."

"They matter if they make their lives matter." He got serious. "Tom, I talk to a lot of liberals in my line of work. You're special, but you're nothing special. The country's half full of people like you who just want to pick up Tookie Williams and cuddle him when they should be screaming to fry the bastard. Where's the outrage? Where's the accountability? What's the point of being a good person? Because you're a good person, Tom. A really good person. Too good for this."

I got annoyed. Luce's flattery never bodes well. "I'm not good, Luce. Just lucky. Just like you're lucky you're not the pregnant woman, the guy with AIDS, the 'welfare queen,'" I said, making airquotes, "the young man... Because you run this whole society into the ground for everybody else, don't you? You and me. Comfortable white boys. All we ever look out for is number one."

"No, Tom." Luce sighed. "Problem is that there aren't enough of you looking out for number one. And one day, that's going to come back to bite you. I'm worried, Tom. I'm worried that if you people keep turning into moonbats, you'll stop listening to me."

"I stopped listening to to you a long time ago, Luce," I grinned, slapping him on the back. He chuckled as he stood to leave, putting a hand on my shoulder.

"Tom, this is so sad. So incredibly sad. We're just a couple of good old boys, same culture, same upbringing. We're all basically just alike, aren't we? But you're not looking out for yourself. I wish you'd do that. Be gentle with Tom Head. He's a good guy. Stop worrying about all these other people who won't take care of themselves. Don't turn into a moonbat." He looked at me, pleadingly. "You have any idea how many friends I lost last year? I can't hold the fort alone. Everybody's turning soft, or going to prison, or..."

"Okay, Luce, I'll try." I felt sorry for the poor guy, because I could tell his pain was real. "Hey, give me a call when you're back in town?"

"Of course!" He smiled and straightened his hat, then tucked his forked tail back under his coat as he turned to walk away.

Previous Comments

ID

104115

Comment

I'm worried that this one might not make much sense to anybody but me. What I'm driving at here is that when you're white in Mississippi, or in a position of power in Mississippi, and you get involved in activist causes, you don't just lose friends--you lose a whole culture, a whole way of seeing yourself, that's very seductive. There's a reason Republicans keep winning elections, and I think it's mainly because they send this message: 1. You earned everything you have. 2. You deserve everything you have. 3. People who don't have what they need basically deserve it, so you don't have to worry. There was also an undercurrent of charming male authority that I meant to put in this little article, but I don't think it's carried through. My original plan for this piece was supposed to be organized around abortion. On another local forum, the same one where they called Ali a "nihilistic death-slut," they're proposing mandatory "accountability" laws for pregnant women, presumably in hopes that they might one day trickle down, through women's families, to the "daddies." I find this very offensive. I'm sure you probably do, too. But if I try really hard, I can almost imagine how they might find this appealing. People believe these things for a reason, folks, and we need to acknowledge both the intellectual and emotional motives involved in the decision to believe, the decision to accept the Kountry Klub Klan mentality. I think the main appeal is the escape from self-criticism. Hence the Satan image--the charming tempter, just like entitlement, with whom I go way back, just like entitlement, and who I vociferously disagree with but inevitably find myself sitting across the table from, just like entitlement. I come so close to that way of thinking sometimes that it's hard to really hate these folks. And on the other hand, really easy. Just as the most vicious homophobes tend to have a greater-than-zero number on the Kinsey scale, I think the folks who are most vitriolic in their criticism of selfish public policy are those, by and large, who most desperately want everything to be okay, who want to believe that racism just doesn't exist anymore and everyone gets what they deserve. There's a reason why the doctrine of karma, or kismet, is almost universal in world religion: It's damned appealing. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T05:15:59-06:00

ID

104116

Comment

"involved in activist causes" --> "involved in progressive activist causes." That's probably a given, but I want to be sure I don't get misunderstood here, because I think the potential for that in an article like this is very great. I whipped this together very quickly, stream of consciousness, and it's a kind of blogging that I don't do very often. But if people like it, you might see more of this kind of magical realist approach in the future. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T05:19:00-06:00

ID

104117

Comment

It makes sense Tom. I can't tell you the number of friends I've lost touch with because of where I work and what I write. You are a more patient man than I. I saw an episode of Will and Grace a few weeks back with a great joke, but a very, very true sentiment of the "you get what you work for" crowd. Karen said, "Poor people are poor because God wants them to be. Otherwise, God would give them more money." To me the Kountry Klub mentaility is more toxic than entitlement. One because it is entitlement. They believe somehow that they've worked harder for what they've earned, and don't see the helping hands who have gotten them where they are, hands that are more readily available to some than others. I think they are ungrateful of the break they've been given or else I would see less of them pontificating about "welfare queens" and more time in the trenches helping others. I think they use God to justify their prejudices. It's more toxic because it buys into what our society terms as success. It's greed plain and simple.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-01-04T09:22:56-06:00

ID

104118

Comment

Not everyone fits into nice catagories, Tom. From the Country Club set to West Jackson, there are people who don't fit the stereotype. Yes, there are people who fit the stereotype but they aren't the majority. To suppose that because someone lives outside Jackson they are automatically suspect is sloppy thinking. To suppose that everyone right of center is automatically a member of the KKK or whatnot is sloppy. Putting people in boxes does a disservice to all those who strive to break them down.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-01-04T10:03:50-06:00

ID

104119

Comment

Tom, I've seen this devil too many times in many friends, friends of friends, and perfect strangers. Conversations like this with friends actually awaken me and give me a certain zest I appreciate... Conversations like this with strangers, drains me, angers me, and fills me with negativity. To the welfare queen point... I'm always surprised to see people that are in management positions or high-seat desk jobs (most-likely earned through a "connection") that do little work, take two-hour sushi breaks, and golf breaks, talk about how HARD they work for their living.... Meanwhile, some female slaves over a phone, fax, keyboard, and coffee machine tending to their business, and some man sweeps and mops the floors, and another person does grunt work, and another does research... I do love to hear people that actually do little-to-no work bitch and moan about social programs for people -- some of which might be working 3 or 4 jobs, taking care of a family, and doing it all with public transit and no spouse. That's hard work and I've seen it humble and humiliate many.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-01-04T10:09:12-06:00

ID

104120

Comment

Wow, I think you just called me Satan! ;) Good story, you sucked me in. I was thinking real conversation until the last line. I feel like that girl from the quickly canceled Fox show "Point Pleasant" last season. She was the daughter of Satan and an angel. I must admit that I would "amen" much of good ole Luce's statements (not all though). In theory I agree that many of the social ills and their causes are self inflicted to a degree (though a very large number are also "inherited" to a degree). Where I greatly differ is in responsibility toward those in these situations for whatever reason. Am I opposed to abortion? Yes. Do I think the majority of abortions in this country are due to irresponsible sexual promiscuity and wanting to "fix" the "problem" they got themselves into? Yes. Do I have a responsibility, morally, to the young girl, single woman, abused wife, etc. who is seeking to have an abortion? Absolutely. If all I do is judge and condemn her, I am part of the problem, not the solution. Although my Christian beliefs prevent me from endorsing the behavior that led to the problem and the remedy, that same belief demands that I reach out to the one hurting with love, compassion and a willingness to help. The same would be true concerning the AIDS infected homosexual. Jesus never endorsed, condoned or excused sin, but He always reached out to the sinner. Sometimes His help and solution was accepted, sometimes it was rejected. Sometimes the recipients accepted His help and His doctrine, other times it was just "Thanks for the meal, but I'll pass on the discipleship." Yesterday alone I helped feed, clothe and pay utilities for 12 poor, black families and two more already today. Some of them I know personally, and have for years. I know that they deal/use drugs. I know that they refuse to work and provide for themselves, but they have children in the home who don't have a say in the matter. That is why I helped. I guess I am somewhat of a platform conservative, but practical liberal.

Author

brandon

Date

2006-01-04T10:12:54-06:00

ID

104121

Comment

IS he referring to JFP readers editors and the like or who? I used to think that way, or at least similarly. It looks ignorant and alien to me now. With extreme prejudice. Thinking like that is what takes money and jobs out of downtown. It seems a little contradictory to think that looking out for #1 is a double edged sword, if you use your resources they may not always be there. My favorite article Tom only because i love the hemingway-like style, or is it head's? Will have to absorb it again and see how it spins off before i comment further.

Author

*SuperStar*

Date

2006-01-04T10:53:50-06:00

ID

104122

Comment

Tom, I guess I'm fortunate in that I have grown up not giving a damn what privileged white men think of me and my views. It has served me well, although it tends to drive them crazy. ;-) But I didn't grow up among the privileged, so maybe it's easier for me to see how awful those kinds of attitudes are. With due respect, Brandon, the attitude that you have personally helped "feed, clothe and pay utilities for 12 poor, black families" is a good thing and one you should be proud of, and not really need to tell people about because it's not considered unusual. But you are missing a larger point that permeates the Bible that you believe in so: that it's not just about helping individuals; it is about helping create conditions, and keeping down the power of the "money-changers" to hurt people. When they do hurt people, it is up to the rest of us to do something about it -- including for people we do not believe are "responsible" enough. It is often difficult to be as responsible when you're down and out so to speak and scrub someone's toilets as it is for your rich corporate boss to proclaim being such a responsible person (although he may be cheating on his wife, his taxes and his employees' pensions because he believes he has the "privilege" to do some a thing). And the saddest part is how such people somehow feel like hurting whole groups of people are OK because they occasionally go out and help one or two or 12. The beautiful truth is: You don't have to choose. And you must not choose. You must help individuals, and you must help society be a better place for everyone, and not blame victims for being victims. These days, whether you personally mean it to be, the "responsibility" mantra has become a cover for bigotry -- both against other races and against the poor (class and race, as it were). Such bigotry is the domain of the proverbial "privileged, white man." That doesn't mean all well-to-do white men fit the "privileged" stereotype, however. The "privileged" phrase is a way to describe the way they see themselves and how they act toward others. We all know it when we see it -- and the saddest part if they have no idea how awful they come across. It's really tragic how much a sport poor-bashing has become. But good people don't play.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-04T11:09:34-06:00

ID

104123

Comment

And Superstar, your remarks are lovely. More power to you for being willing to grow. We all must be.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-04T11:10:10-06:00

ID

104124

Comment

Tom Interesting post, for sure. I mean, content aside, I like how it was written, but the dialogue itself is the kind of meeting of the minds that are needed. On the matter of "moon-bats"...my response was mostly in the vein of, "Whatever." I think he's judging the lifestyle of people he hasn't bothered to get to know, and I was never 100% sure who he was referring to (perhaps just figments of his imagination). If he's referring to people who party in smoke-filled places and drink and karaoke, etc., and how you don't, that seems to be a poor line of logic as to why you should not be in dialogue with people. None of that is my scene either but that doesn't mean there isn't something to be learned from said "moonbats" when the philosopher, poet, activist, journalist, or social commentator hat is put on. I understand the Luce's of the world, not because I agree with them, but because having left Mississippi, traveled the world for 20 yrs, and come back (for how long I really don't know), I can see how people can become firmly entrenched in worldviews and conditioning, and how that "software program" that has been grafted onto the hardware of the brain can shut the heart down, and simultaneously often ignores very large chunks of American history and how cumulative events have led to a legacy that is playing out (Luce's comments about welfare mothers, crime, etc.). As we saw in Ali's excellent "bootstrap article" some months ago I just don't think most people actually get this legacy piece I'm referring to. WE--the collective WE as Americans--seem to have a very short attention span...we seem to summarily dismiss how the experiences of ancestors in previous generations can still shape us unconsciously and also how the traumas experienced by previous generations (or the unfair treatment in the VERY RECENT HISTORY in Mississippi in terms of African-Americans) could still be something that individuals are trying to work through on a day to day basis. It's really frikkin easy for someone who hasn't experienced oppression to tell someone else who has to "just get over it." On the one hand, I understand where he is trying to come from (which almost seems like a sense of protection of you), but on the other hand I found some of his thoughts calloused. It reminds me of a saying I heard once in relation to racial reconciliation: Who you do not love says nothing about them; it only serves to explain your limitations.

Author

whateveryouwant

Date

2006-01-04T11:57:38-06:00

ID

104125

Comment

I would add that I agree with the notion that at SOME point a person has to just "get over it," but the point I'm trying to make is that it feels unrealistic for someone who hasn't known the internal experience of something like oppression (or who doesn't take it into account) to set the timeline of human healing and human development.

Author

whateveryouwant

Date

2006-01-04T12:01:55-06:00

ID

104126

Comment

I thought of jumping in earlier but work got in the way, a seldom occurrence. I have been asked countless times how do my peers, colleagues, neighbors, friends and love ones react to me, or am I concerned about how the community perceives me. As to the later question the anwer is hell nall. I could save the lives of the President, his whole Cabinet, and the Pope without gaining any status or approval from certain people or groups in our society. I know this and hasn't cared in decades. Instead of trying to be accepted by anyone I try to do the moral and loving thing when opportunities are presented. I don't know of any groups or persons that I desire a connection or acceptance with that would cause me to compromise my personal, moral and rigtheous principles. Friendships can be challenging. I often have friends (and other lawyers)ask me how I can fight so hard for someone they deem unworthy or without worth. I first ask, who are they to judge? Then I ask what platform do you speak from? You see, I have spent lots of clear and sober days watching and studying people and things, including my friends. I often ask my friends if they would like to go to jail or be punished for everything they have done wrong. Fortunately, a few have even participated in criminal conduct; so, I ask them if they would like to go to jail for possessing whatever. This question usually shuts up that kind. Tom, I learned early in life to walk alone if I had to. I remember so many days of daydreaming the so-called unreachable dream for a kid like me. I used to wonder how I could possibly achieve these goals without any help or direction. The next comment will offend some. However, when I was about 11 or 12 and sitting in the back of Mt. Calvary Church, Revern Johnson Carter, preached Psalms 23. I learned that day to not fear walking alone because I wasn't really ever alone. As I got a little older and wiser I also realized it was better to leave a legacy of love than a collection or riches. The more I hung people with different views the less I was impressed and the more I was burdened. Tom, I have always admired the fact that you view and study things for yourself before deciding what to do. And yes, your love for mankid shines through in your writings.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-01-04T12:56:26-06:00

ID

104127

Comment

Ladd, For the record, I wish I hadn't posted what I did about helping the families. It was intended to point out that just because I am white, middle class and conservative, I am not a bigot or unwilling to do my part to make the world around me a better place. After going back and reading it, it came across as patting myself on the back, which was totally not the point. I was just trying to validate that although I might disagree with some I correspond with on this site as to how to make things better, I am trying. Sorry if it sounded snooty or sanctimonious.

Author

brandon

Date

2006-01-04T14:52:26-06:00

ID

104128

Comment

I do have a question that I would genuinely like to see how others would deal with this situation. I come from a belief that our country is mostly fair to all people and provides opportunities to all who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices, although there are some exceptions and some who are giving it their all, and then some, still fall through the cracks. Most of the folks I talk to here seem (my interpretation, not trying to put words in anyone's mouth) to come from the position that our country is still largely racist and caters to the privileged, and a large number who work hard and try to improve their quality of life slip through the cracks, while a few make it through. I don't think most of you believe that everything that is wrong is all the fault of rich white men and that no one should be expected to be responsible for any of their actions. I hope none of you think that I believe that everything that is wrong is the fault of people who are poor because they are lazy and they make their own beds and have to lie in them. Is there a kernel of truth in both of our beliefs that is usually exploited by the "other side", probably. Now my question: How would you handle this situation, and what type of attitude would you have if this is what you experienced on a daily basis? A man comes to you in need of help. He says he is having to live with family or friends because he can't afford a place of his own. He needs money to get a place of his own because his family and friends are tired of him living off them. His initial reason for coming to you is he needs money to get his car fixed. Because he has no ride he can't get a job (he says). You pay to fix his car and set up a job interview for him, it is a temp job ($7/hr) but it is at least a job. Car is fixed, interview is set up, he doesn't show. A couple of days later you contact him and he "claims" he had a wreck on the way that morning (which you later find out to be a lie). So you talk to a friend ('cause you know, you've got "connections") and get him a job without even being interviewed. Turns out this job is much better. $10 an hour (which is decent money where I live; both me and my dad raised families on that amount). Since his car is "wrecked" you pick him up everyday on your way to work and drop him off, pick him up at the end of the day. You do this for a week. The work is not a cakewalk, but it is not slave labor either (working at a Co-Op feedstore). Your friend who has a masters degree and hired him does the same work and manages the store. The next week you go to pick him up but he is not there. Your friend tells you he left for lunch with a buddy but never came back. You call him, he won't answer. You go to his house, he won't open the door. You run into him on the street a few months later he cusses you and tells you to get out of his face. Weeks later he goes to someone else in the community for the same reason (who ironically is a friend of yours) and does the same thing all over again. Now suppose this happened to you, not once or twice, but once or twice per month for seven years. Would you be tempted to take the position that a large number of people who are in poverty, even when given help, refuse to help themselves? You may not, but I have because this is not just a hypothetical, it is a true story and I could tell you literally dozens more just like it. I can only tell you three where the person kept working, kept trying, accepting help and is now on their feet. I am not trying to judge the whole world, but based on the experiences I have had in the last seven years, this is what I have seen. Sorry for always writing so much, but unlike you guys I don't have a column that I write for, nor am I qualified for such, so I just have to take it out on ya'll. Thanks for tolerating though. ;)

Author

brandon

Date

2006-01-04T14:53:34-06:00

ID

104129

Comment

Wow. I'm thrilled that this translated to other folks--I was a little worried that there would be an awkward silence. "Bueller? Bueller?" Detailed responses to follow. First, a quick note to brandon and Ironghost, because they bring up a valid point and it's something I should have made clearer... I am not saying that conservatism, in and of itself, is satanic. Selfishness is what I would call satanic, and when selfishness is reflected in public policy through a series of "I made this, I'm good enough, I deserve this, screw them" initiatives, I think it's right and proper to point at the devil and call it by name. That does not mean that everybody who opposes social welfare programs is satanic. Folks like brandon, who don't want the government to do these things but still feel like these things need to be done and are willing to take concrete steps to get them done, are, I think, as morally enlightened as any liberal. Nobody would call the director of Gateway Rescue Mission, for example, a satanist--but I'm pretty sure he's a Republican. Ditto the folks in Catholic Charities and, heck, the Southern Baptist Convention, who dedicate their lives to helping others. Mississippi is, per capita, the most generous state in the country--and also one of the reddest. Which tells me that there are a lot of deeply ethical conservatives here. My point is not to smear all conservatives. Worth mentioning, also, that there are many liberals who are all too happy to buy into "noble" political philosophies in the abstract but would not be caught dead getting their hands dirty by actually helping people. Show me a pure capitalist conservative who actually gives a damn about the struggling people in her life and a so-called bleeding heart liberal who doesn't, and I would have to say that the liberal is the one with the bigger problem. And even for conservatives around here who aren't necessarily Mother Teresa, I draw a very important distinction between what I would call satanic behavior and satanic people. There are some pretty creepy areas of my own mind, too, and I think that's basically true of everybody. I don't think people choose to be immoral. Like all good borderline secularists, I tend to think that people are products of the biology they're stuck with, the environment they're stuck with, and the random mutations they're stuck with. "Free will" exists only inasmuch as the products of these factors get to make decisions, but my notion of evil is based on a disease model and I think we're all morally diseased to a greater or lesser extent. I just think that satanic, "me-first" philosophy, reflected in certain aspects of conservative public policy but posing a very real danger to everyone regardless of political beliefs, is a particularly virulent strain. Very contagious, very potent, very seductive--it's beneficial to believe it, it makes me feel better to believe it, I can come up with internally consistent arguments to support it, and so forth. A life without guilt, a life where I don't have to look hard at human suffering. That's a pretty appealing prospect, even for a moonbat. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T15:00:59-06:00

ID

104130

Comment

brandon, a quick note to you on the new post before I go on to the others: I've done a little bit of work with homeless folks. I know there are definitely people like the one you describe. I never give much money to people who ask for it on the street; I donate to places that give money to people who ask for it on the street. Why? Because they catch the swindlers. Good Samaritan is especially good at this. And it's totally necessary. Various places had toy drives a few years back for kids--one toy per kid. Well, some kids got four or five toys, and some kids none, because certain families ingeniously went from one location to another telling the same story. So yeah. There are definitely some shysters out there walking the streets, and they're the ones you're most likely to see, because you're part of how they operate in the world. And I can see how this would give people the impression that most homeless people are like that. But they aren't. brandon, there are several hundred homeless folks in Jackson. I can pretty much guarantee that you see the same 10 or 20 homeless people that I do--folks who go out there and work the system. The rest are invisible to us. I'm not as worried about the 10 or 20 who work the system; they're obviously doing okay. I'm more worried about the 200 or 300 who don't. So I'd say that the impression you're describing about homeless people in general, though entirely reasonable, is dead wrong. It suffers from what I would call an error of prominence--you're only seeing the nails that are sticking out, when the vast majority are embedded in the wood, where they don't catch your foot. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T15:09:24-06:00

ID

104131

Comment

"Bueller, Bueller" very witty, I laughed out loud.

Author

brandon

Date

2006-01-04T15:14:19-06:00

ID

104132

Comment

Emily, good post. Thanks so much. :o) I have to admit that I have lost more "country club" friends from my association with the JFP than I ever lost for my ACLU membership, or my Unitarian dual-affiliation, or my LGBT advocacy work. I have no idea why, except that it's local and gets mainstream attention, which I guess makes it feel more dangerous to them somehow. Certainly we need to look at why conservatives seem to spend so much more time dissing Donna than they do dissing progressives who are actually in the legislature, or who run lobbying groups. Makes no bleeding sense to me. I know some pretty heavy hitters in the Mississippi liberal activist community, but none of them have ever gotten any web sites specifically dedicated to trashing them. Donna has had at least three, at last count. And it stings a little bit to lose friends for any reason, doesn't it? I watch Will & Grace occasionally, and I have to say that Karen is a comically outspoken version of the same impulse I was trying to capture in Luce. Only difference is that Karen is kind of cute, and you get the feeling she doesn't really get the implications of what she's saying. Course, the same could be true of N-JAM. I don't really know. And yeah, the problem is entitlement, I think. That's the magic word. Entitlement is the seductive, satanic impulse I think we need to watch out for, folks--no matter what kind of entitlement it is. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T15:17:28-06:00

ID

104133

Comment

Um, who would be offended if I said I wanted to BE Karen when I grew up?

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-01-04T15:26:49-06:00

ID

104134

Comment

Brandon, after only a quick scan of your post (which I how I read most others), I would be quite disappointed in those individuals who have abused my helping hand. Giving up is not the true kind of love that's described in the Bible you teach. Neither is stereotying all of any group based on a few situations that you're familiar with. You have to expand your horizon and outlook beyond your work ot living situations to see the actual truth about poverty or anything else. You have to search for the larger picture. Some people will let you down every time. Consider a drug addicted child who will lie to you over and over again. Would you be surprised they lied or give up on them? We can never give up on each other completely. Take a break or rest and keep on trying. I don't know many minorities who will say our country is mostly fair to all. It might be mostly fair to all white people and then to accomplished people of all races after that. I believe we have an obligation to search for the truth about everything, especially if we're in positions of power and leadership. Similarly, if we're to do the right thing we have to know what the right thing is. I will say as a black man that our country offers enormous opportunities for the fittiest or most talented. An ideal approach or outlook (which is often good) need to be based in facts; otherwise, you risk being called a fool or George Bush. Somebody will always find the truth so we might as well look for it ourselves and deal with it. Finally, be careful about those who will spitefully use you. They exist in every race and town. There is nothing wrong with demanding that a person be independent if their health and age allow it. I will even cut off a family member to do this.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-01-04T15:27:59-06:00

ID

104135

Comment

Knol, two very good points. First, the friend-stranger thing: I've noticed a similar dynamic at work. Without going into specifics, I almost threw everything away on this forum because I thought that some of my so-called friends (all of them N-JAMmers) were being treated unfairly here. Why the hell did I do that? Loyalty. I don't know you well, Knol, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're both a couple of suckers when it comes to loyalty. We're very easy to triangulate into situations we have no business being in. And we have to be more coldhearted than is in our nature, sometimes, to keep from being played. And the "never mind the proles" attitude you tear apart in the second paragraph is, I think, very prevalent. I see it all the time myself. Depresses me. Dick Gregory used to say "I knew Santa Claus wasn't real because no white man would go to my neighborhood after dark." So we have all these people in the fluffy rich 'burbs and fluffy rich gated subdivisions who live in mortal fear of half the city, where little old ladies fearlessly sit on their porches after dark on streets these folks won't even drive through. Who should be feeling superior here? I think the folks with guts should be feeling superior here. And as someone else pointed out a few months ago: It takes a hell of a lot more survival skills to raise a family in poverty than it does to raise a family on an executive's salary, and we should respect those skills just as much, or more, as we would respect a Ph.D., M.D., or J.D. Because I bet most Ph.D.'s, M.D.'s, or J.D.'s would absolutely go bonkers if they had to raise three kids on minimum wage and food stamps. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-04T15:34:27-06:00

ID

104136

Comment

Ladd, For the record, I wish I hadn't posted what I did about helping the families. It was intended to point out that just because I am white, middle class and conservative, I am not a bigot or unwilling to do my part to make the world around me a better place. Brandon, don't worry, I'm not assuming you're a racist or patting yourself on the back. I'm trying to tease out a bigger discussion about the issues by responding to your post. And it seems like that it is working. But seriously, don't worry about what you said sounding bad; the truth is these kinds of discussions are difficult and, if we are to have them, we must take the risk of offending or sounding santimonimous. You are here and talking, and I admire that about you, friend.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-04T15:34:34-06:00

ID

104137

Comment

Certainly we need to look at why conservatives seem to spend so much more time dissing Donna than they do dissing progressives who are actually in the legislature, or who run lobbying groups. Makes no bleeding sense to me. I know some pretty heavy hitters in the Mississippi liberal activist community, but none of them have ever gotten any web sites specifically dedicated to trashing them. Donna has had at least three, at last count. To me, Tom, this indicates that our mission is working. We are here to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Or the "privileged." If they are devoting entire Web site to trashing me because I'm willing to challenge their inherited notions about how the world works, I am doing the job I believe I was assigned when the doctor slapped my a$$ in the delivery room. (Not being arrogant; I believe we all have an assignment if we pay attention to what it is.) In many ways, I delight in the obsession that spotlights these type of people's true natures. I don't delight in lies N-JAM et al tell about me, my loved ones, my employees and my business because the doctor slapped in me an extra dose of injustice-hatred, and to me lies are unjust, but I recognize the obsession for what it is–desperation–and I call that a victory. I've always believed that one of the roles of a good, thought-provoking publication (or other forum) is to help spotlight the posers, the fakers and the people in our society who quietly try to bring about harm or to keep other people down--and to show even their own friends and families and business associates what they're really about. You can say, without a doubt, that the mere existence of the JFP has brought out the worst in some folks out there, and they're feeling the heat. If they weren't, they wouldn't be making an a$$ out of themselves trying to discredit the JFP. We're all smart enough to know that. The good news is that the JFP has helped give a forum where the good people out there who really care about diversity and understanding plain old love can talk to each other -- whether it's brandon or ray carter or the myriad others who hug my neck the first time they meet me because they're so happy that such a forum exists here now. They so far overshadow the small cadre of angry schmucks with multiple anonmyous screen names that it's not even an issue to me. And the best part is that the angry schmucks are quickly learning that their numbers are pretty small compared to the people who want to work together for a better, more positive community, regardless of political leaning. It's kind of a beautiful thing. I feel very content going into 2006. Of course, our Media Audit numbers don't hurt anything. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-04T15:45:39-06:00

ID

104138

Comment

"I watch Will & Grace occasionally, and I have to say that Karen is a comically outspoken version of the same impulse I was trying to capture in Luce. Only difference is that Karen is kind of cute, and you get the feeling she doesn't really get the implications of what she's saying. Course, the same could be true of N-JAM. I don't really know." - Tom First, they'd all have to be on "ruffies" and Xanax, and straight liquor to have the same excuse as Karen from Will & Grace. ;-) Tom, I seriously think some of them are emotionally disturbed. It's not just Donna... It's not just you... It's me, it's Ali, it's a FAMILY including children, it's artists in the city and so many more that I've seen named specifically alongside curse words, derogatory comments, and childish slurs. You should see some of the vile, garbage and personal attacks those "God-fearing" conservatives have spewed into too many databases of mine and the JFPs that never made the public net. Swear on my iPod if it continues, we'll have a whole, right-wingnut, Internet scandal when I decide to drop their ISPs and hosts a call for spamming databases with hateful slurs... Of course, some of them push the line and I've contemplated contacting the FBI because of the lines crossed. Plain creepy posts to some databases that were borderline hate. To be fair, I think many of them would feel shamed by some of the things sent to me in their name.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-01-04T15:47:12-06:00

ID

104139

Comment

Donna's dangerous? I didn't notice! :)

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-01-04T23:27:40-06:00

ID

104140

Comment

Just now digging out from under my work to catch the remaining (excellent) posts. Thanks, folks. I'm so glad the rest of y'all got this. One of the great fears writers have, I think, is Babylon Syndrome--I spill my guts and say something that sounds brilliant to me, but nobody else has a clue what I'm talking about. Superstar writes: IS he referring to JFP readers editors and the like or who? This was a composite of actual things I had heard from "establishment" friends who seemed to believe, or at least wanted me to believe, that they were looking out for my best interests. The phrase "They're the subset; you're the superset" came from an actual email I received from an anonymous poster called "The Grinder," who was upset that I had backed up Donna on a right-wing forum and taken steps to affiliate more closely with the Free Press. But most of this is stuff that you hear about liberals in general. With the drinking/partying/screwing thing, what I looked for was what conservatives consistently say to me when they're trying to get me to back away from liberal groups. "They don't share your values" is the general vibe, and it basically boils down to recreational habits and the general sense of freakishness that I think pretty much everybody has--"Oh, no, I'm different from everyone else, so my life isn't going to work out right." I'm not an experience-oriented person or a conformist, and some of my liberal friends are exactly the same way, and most are at least partly the same way, and a few think I'm from Mars but love me anyway. All of those options work for me. Sex seems to be THE dividing line--I don't do sex for sex's sake and I think I'm right not to, so the assumption conservatives make is that this means I distrust or can't build close, meaningful friendships with people who do practice casual sex or sex outside of long-term relationships. That assumption is incorrect. I used to think that way, or at least similarly. It looks ignorant and alien to me now. With extreme prejudice. I hear you. I've wanted to be there myself from time to time. Membership has its privileges. Thinking like that is what takes money and jobs out of downtown. Agreed. It seems a little contradictory to think that looking out for #1 is a double edged sword, if you use your resources they may not always be there. That's what makes the satanic option so appealing. Everybody wants to be safe, and "he who loses his life shall find it" is not a particularly intuitive concept. My favorite article Tom only because i love the hemingway-like style, or is it head's? Heh! Thanks for this; you made my day. This was a really risky thing for me to post, and when people say they particularly like a piece of writing that I found risky, I understand musicians who say they'd rather play their difficult, obscure pieces than their standards. Will have to absorb it again and see how it spins off before i comment further. Well, I'm awfully glad you did comment. And you'll see more out-there stuff from me in the future, I think; when I was 12, I wanted to write just like Ray Bradbury. When I was 21, it was Borges and Marquez. Now I'd just be content if I could figure out how to write like Head. I think even my reference writing will be helped if I can figure out how to take off my tie and jump in the moshpit, and the blog might be a good way of doing that. So I'll go ape. Not John-and-Yoko-farting-into-a-tape-recorder ape, but still ape. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T00:49:39-06:00

ID

104141

Comment

Donna writes: Tom, I guess I'm fortunate in that I have grown up not giving a damn what privileged white men think of me and my views. It has served me well, although it tends to drive them crazy. ;-) But I didn't grow up among the privileged, so maybe it's easier for me to see how awful those kinds of attitudes are. Hmmm. Funny thing is that I didn't really grow up among the N-JAM style privileged, either--I grew up homeschooled in a middle-class transitional neighborhood in south Jackson, and my main social outlet (as I keep harping on) was the racially and socioeconomically diverse YWCA on North State Street, which used to be where the Old Capitol Inn is now. I mean, sure, I'm privileged--white, male, heterosexual, not having to face poverty, born in the United States, good experiences with education, not severely handicapped, etc. etc. etc. There's a lot of privilege there. But there were a lot of things my folks couldn't afford, and we certainly didn't run in the wine-and-cheese circles. I think what changed was the "white bar mitzvah" that happened when I was 14 and the Y closed down. I was pretty sick, and really very undersocialized for the next few years because of that, but what social outlets I did have were pretty much exclusively white. Within a period of a year I went from having plenty of friends of both races to having white friends who, on average, were also much, much older than I was. So that changed a lot of things for me. Then a few years ago, I started running with some crowds that I thought were activist, but were really more philanthropist than activist. And as you no doubt know, the philanthropist attitude is a very different thing from the activist attitude. There's the sense of bending down to help instead of linking arms and standing up together. There are some very good people who run in those circles, but there's a certain amount of blindness that seems to come with the territory. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T01:02:08-06:00

ID

104142

Comment

Ray writes: I thought of jumping in earlier but work got in the way, a seldom occurrence. Same here, man. We've got to cut that out. Excellent posts. A lot to chew on. I've wondered sometimes, with the work you and David do, how many conversations you must have had that went a lot like the one I had with old Scratch. "Don't throw your lives away doing this." "Why are you working for monsters?" And so on. All willfully ignoring the context of your work, which I believe is that you provide constitutionally guaranteed protection to people most likely to be denied it--and God bless you for it. There are people who are being treated unfairly and constitutional guarantees that must be preserved, an But I guess their brand of "credibility" has no room for context, for nuance, for meaning. What some people seem to expect us to want most out of life is for those who instinctively stand against everything we stand for to respect us anyway. Maybe that's just good old fashioned peer pressure, but some people in pretty high places seem to fall for it on a regular basis. Bugs me. Thanks for the kind words. And I'll back you up any day on your experience in church--anybody who belittles that sort of thing is just showing their inability to accept the fact that sometimes meaningful things happen that don't fit their metaphysics. I value science, but I also value the real experiences of life. Sure, some folks may say Jesus appeared to them in a vision and told them to buy 150 shares of Viacom or whatever, and I laugh at that--but the Mysterium Tremendum, the Eternal Thou, her I don't laugh at. The universe is too damn big, too damn old, and I'm too damn small, too damn young, to know all about it. As the old fisherman's prayer goes: Dear God, be good to me ; The sea is so wide, And my boat is so small. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T04:39:54-06:00

ID

104143

Comment

"...must be preserved, an" --> "...and that's the only thing that separates capital murder trials from old fashioned lynchings." And sometimes, as in the Curtis Flowers case, this becomes especially clear. BTW- You ever hear Helen Prejean speak...? Attended her thing at St. Richard's a few months ago. She was fantastic. One of the few public figures described as living saints who actually seems to be the genuine article. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T04:44:58-06:00

ID

104144

Comment

Ali writes: Um, who would be offended if I said I wanted to BE Karen when I grew up? Dahlink, you are grown up, and Karen wants to be you. But with lots more shoes. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T04:47:01-06:00

ID

104145

Comment

Donna writes: To me, Tom, this indicates that our mission is working. We are here to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Or the "privileged." And you're obviously getting under their skin. Proud of you, grrl. I log into the Site From Hell periodically when I see the criticism get too nasty, but really all I'm doing is depriving you of medals, I think. Because the more you piss certain people off, the more successful your work is. I keep pointing out this incongruity to them: Yeah, you say she's an inconsequential loonie, but you set up multiple web sites about her and talk about her all the time, online and off? I mean, I knew I wasn't going to get along with these people very well when a certain person (who, out of unearned respect, I will not name publicly) called me up voice to brag for 20 minutes about how he was on your site under an alias and you didn't know it was him. I kept waiting for him to get to the point. Apparently, that was the point. So obviously they're scared to death of you, and faults though they may have, I don't think they'd be scared of an inconsequential, marginalized voice who will never hurt them. Hell, they like Ralph Nader, don't they? I am doing the job I believe I was assigned when the doctor slapped my a$$ in the delivery room. Well, I hope you filed a complaint! That's completely inappro- *pause* Oh. When you were born. Sorry. Long day... (Not being arrogant; I believe we all have an assignment if we pay attention to what it is.) I believe that, too, and I believe it completely independent of any theology. What was it that Rabbi Heschel said? "Neither stars nor stones, neither atoms nor waves, but their belonging together, their interaction, the relation of all things to one another, constitutes the universe. No cell could exist alone; all bodies are interdependent, affect and serve one another. Figuratively speaking, even rocks bear fruit, are full of unappreciated kindness, when their strength holds up a wall." (Moment of boasting here: I introduced that quote to the Internet. It comes from an extended discussion in his book Man is Not Alone, my favorite Heschel work. Back in 2001, I made it my sigfile quote; someone from the Metanexus Institute asked where I found it so that he could print it up on postcards; and now I see googling the phrase turns up an assortment of diverse matches. Glad it spoke to folks. I know it spoke to me.) The good news is that the JFP has helped give a forum where the good people out there who really care about diversity and understanding plain old love can talk to each other -- whether it's brandon or ray carter or the myriad others who hug my neck the first time they meet me because they're so happy that such a forum exists here now. They so far overshadow the small cadre of angry schmucks with multiple anonmyous screen names that it's not even an issue to me. And the best part is that the angry schmucks are quickly learning that their numbers are pretty small compared to the people who want to work together for a better, more positive community, regardless of political leaning. It's kind of a beautiful thing. I feel very content going into 2006. So am I, Donna--and thank you. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief that anything like the JFP exists. Yeah, it's a weekly free paper. What's the big deal, some people might ask. But I think it has really transformed the culture of the city of Jackson in a lot of ways, connected people in a lot of ways, and built relationships, communities, hope. It's a shining example of what good journalism can do. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T04:57:55-06:00

ID

104146

Comment

knew I wasn't going to get along with these people very well when a certain person (who, out of unearned respect, I will not name publicly) called me up voice to brag for 20 minutes about how he was on your site under an alias and you didn't know it was him. Uh, there are very few troublemakers on this site whom I can't identify. And most of them have been the same unnamed person who has used various aliases on all those hate-Donna sites for the last three years. I could list the aliases of this person ... but I won't. Because all pitiful, self-focused people want is attention, and we've got bigger fish to fry (er, photograph, being that you and I are veggies ). Seriously, I quit looking at any of those sites many months ago. I sometimes get something forwarded from a reader that's particularly stupid, ugly or libelous (they're lucky I'm not the "actionable" type, as much as they've tried to say that I am over the years. A good hint: They usually say the opposite of what's true about anything JFP-related. That's their, er, clever way of trying to discredit us. NOT!). Anyway, I picked up a hint from my police commander friend in NYC years back: I don't look at car wrecks unless I can help in some way because I don't need that sh!t in my head. The same goes for four obsessed children in men's clothes who have nothing better to do than draw attention to my staff's work. The work itself stands on its own, and of that, I am very proud. Early on, and shortly after the really ugly smear campaign started against me and the JFP by the four angry men, another very wise and daring man in this town – whom most of you admire greatly – told me to ignore them. This is someone who had done things in the state no one thought would ever happen, and he is an inspiration to me. He told me stories about his "stalkers" from past years, and how they are the very ones who need to be shown to be such fools. Let them sink themselves publicly, he said, and stay focused on my own work. Their biggest goal is to try to quell my energy and my spirit. I take that advice to heart. And I do have a dirty little secret: I'm the type of person who is inspired by every single attempt to try to keep me from doing what I'm supposed to do. It's like Kryptonite to me. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-05T10:34:02-06:00

ID

104147

Comment

You should see some of the vile, garbage and personal attacks those "God-fearing" conservatives have spewed into too many databases of mine and the JFPs that never made the public net.f Yes, Knol. The most despicable were all the ugly things entered into the JFP's Edgar Ray Killen petition–making racist statements and calling Knol and me all sorts of names. We're not dealing with sanity here, that's true. It's hard to imagine that any of those people really think this makes us somehow feel bad about ourselves! What a small (non-existent?) mind it would take to think such a thing. It is funny, though, that the same people who will go on and on about how they're not "racist" will take the time to spam a list to call for a civil-rights investigation with all sorts of racist, homophobic and plan nasty slurs. We know who you are, guys.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-05T13:57:47-06:00

ID

104148

Comment

I should also add that some of them are too damn naive to understand what's in their midst that they are defending all the time. But it's hard to feel sorry for people that stupid. So I try not to ever think about them and ignore them roundly when I see them in public. As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist. And that's advice I would offer to others, including yourself, Tom.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-05T14:00:16-06:00

ID

104149

Comment

I am readiing Jimmy Carters latest book "Our Endangered Values" he gives a very good definition and analysis of Fundamentalism. Best I have read. Not attack based at all but eloquently stated as to the mind set of these people. As for me, I love this site. It's my window on Jackson which is the only home I really claim even though I live in Atlanta. I was born and raised in Jackson and my contacts here have put me back in touch with the situation over there. There are alot of fundies.....in Mississippi. Any attempt to call down the cult will always be met with attack. But keep on bloggin......

Author

ATLExile

Date

2006-01-05T14:13:26-06:00

ID

104150

Comment

I've been in that boat, once. Got a message from one so-called defender of the faith after a letter calling the MS SBC cowards made it to the ledge's opinon page. I called his pastor and had a chat with him about it. :) Silly people, really. They don't actually believe in the bible, they believe in their culture based on a mismash of Old South and Hearsay Theology. If they'd take time to read and understand the Word of God... We might not have this problem.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-01-05T16:28:55-06:00

ID

104151

Comment

The funny thing, Donna, and you know this even better than I do, is that once you get to know your so-called fundamentalist critics it becomes clear that they aren't even all that good at being fundamentalists. There was a little irony in Luce's description of the hedonistic lifestyle liberals were supposed to cling to. And yeah, you probably knew who it was, but even if you didn't--come on, is it any real great achievement to get a freebie AOL account or use an anonymizer or whatever to get on a site incognito? I thought that was dumb when I was 13 and calling BBS's. The Luce I describe above is a selfish Luce but not a fundamentalist Luce; notice he never says anything about the fetus being a separate human being, for example. For him, being pro-life is all about respecting "consequences." I personally believe that the pro-life movement represents an uneasy tension between some of the most moral people in the country and some of the most hateful and mean-spirited people in the country. ATLExile, ever read Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God? Great, and very fair, scholarly history of fundamentalism. I personally am not convinced that fundamentalism is always a bad thing, but there are healthy and unhealthy forms of fundamentalism, just like there are healthy and unhealthy forms of everything else. I wouldn't call N-JAM a fundamentalist group. Their theology is actually pretty mainstream, even pedestrian, except when it comes to people who aren't like them. Knol, did I ever tell you that I'm pretty sure I know one of the hate mail spammers (actually, two--one person, two aliases) in person, and it's not from N-JAM? Message me privately and I'll give you the scoop. Ironghost, agreed on the Bible. Most seriously, if we take away everything from the Bible but Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and look at how a life personally built around the synoptic Gospels might be, it becomes clear that, in the words of G.K. Chesterton, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been thought too hard and never tried." Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-01-05T18:59:14-06:00

ID

104152

Comment

Tom I will buy that book this weekend or at least order it. I for one am tired of attack mode with the fundementalist community. I want to know why this is. Also, "The Mind of the Bible Believer" is a good one. This new book by Carter is a very good insight into his practice of Christianity. "Blessed are the Peace Makers" without him actually saying it but living it. By the way...ole Patty Rob is at it again. Ariel Sharon's stroke is Gods punishment for giving away Israeli land! "The mind of the Bible Believer" in living flesh.....

Author

ATLExile

Date

2006-01-06T10:02:41-06:00

ID

104153

Comment

Yes, I believe that history will frown upon this period as a time when really cynical, awful people tried to "steal" religion for very greedy purposes. And a time when media let them do it. This is how the ignorant, neo-con "wink-wink" argument goes: "YOU WANT TO HELP THE POOR?!? Then you're just a drunk heathen commie scum-bucket who devil-worships on the weekend." (Of course, that guy is boffing the "other woman" at work, but no matter because he "owns" religion and values.) What morons. I sure can't speak for Jesus et al., but I'm thinking they're not digging this guy. I think the most cynical example–and evidence–of this to date is the whole Abramoff scam "family" group set up to help corporations and gambling interests. These, folks, are the "money-changers."

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-06T10:22:09-06:00

ID

104154

Comment

I'm glad people can seperate the "money changers" (which I like, Donna) from the honest people who worship and don't worry about government.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-01-06T10:53:53-06:00

ID

104155

Comment

It's so important that we do, Iron. A huge mistake from "the left"–God, I hate the left-right spectrum; so simplistic and archaic–is to stereotype all faithful people as this ignorant, greedy neo-cons who will invoke the southern strategy at a pin's drop to get racist votes, etc. And the faithful on the "left" know that better than anyone. Again, the media has been a co-conspirator is allowing this division to be perpetrated by the radical right (I don't mean "religious right," btw): The screaming back and forth sells newspapers–they think. But, uh, why is circulation for dailies failing then, huh?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-06T11:10:31-06:00

ID

104156

Comment

Would you be tempted to take the position that a large number of people who are in poverty, even when given help, refuse to help themselves? brandon, it would tell me that the richest country in the world needs to do everything in its power to cure the poverty that causes such helplessness and inertia. I don't think you're getting to the deepest roots here. Again, it's a symptoms-vs.-disease thing. Treat the symptoms, but cure the disease. And don't bash people for showing the symptoms of the disease. That's self-defeating.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-01-07T00:05:01-06:00

ID

104157

Comment

I really enjoyed this discussion. Glad that you all are still fighting to make a difference here.

Author

Harper

Date

2006-01-12T10:33:02-06:00