Ellington

A well-meaning friend from out of state asked me a puzzling question recently: "When will it be enough?" When will Mississippi have talked so much about race history that we don't have to anymore?

I blinked slowly, confused. "I don't understand the question," I answered, adding: "When can we stop talking about the Holocaust? When do we stop teaching history?"

The next few minutes then exploded into a twisting conversation that left me, quite literally, in tears. And, yes, I was befuddled—not because I can't answer the question, but because I don't understand why it is asked.

It is, though. It seems like, say, a quarter of Mississippians believe we've "talked about race enough." Bringing up the past, they argue, keeps emotions raw (it did that night, certainly) and race relations strained. That's "over"; "we" (meaning white people) didn't do that stuff then, so why do "we" have to keep apologizing? See the "Mississippi: Believe It" PR campaign for a blatant embrace of this approach—one that denies that Mississippians are black, and we are white, and that the blues resulted from our state's treatment of black people. It's not all behind us; it's part of us.

Then there are people who want to stay in the past—so much so that they blame the white power structure, or the "WPS," if they stump a toe in the morning. This group, sadly, even includes a few heroes of the past and some Civil Rights Movement legends, who believe they own our race history because of their skin tone or because they were injured, some horribly, by playing a role in it.

These people refuse to consider why young people do not want to constantly relive those struggles—because they are living their own now. Some of these people get mad at the JFP because we spend time trying to uncover abuse of today's young people in private homes and training schools and detention centers, rather than put all of our resources into unearthing old civil rights cases, and sending 80-year-old Klansmen to prison.

Of course, we do that, too, but for the people who only live in the past, we can never do enough. And we can't, certainly.

Then there are the rest of us—the too-long silent majority of Mississippians who carry the answer to the "when?" riddle in our hearts. Many of us were born during the civil rights struggle, right in the belly of the beast; we're of different races, and our parents might have been rich, poor, educated, illiterate, daring, timid, civil rights activists, Klansmen, elected officials, Citizens Councillors, scared to speak out, or just dumbfounded by the madness of our state. But by some fate—or by soaking up the words of Dr. King at a rally we don't really remember, or simply by the hand of a higher power—we have a message encoded in our DNA. We know The Secret; we carry the Holy Grail of our state inside us; we know how to crack the Dixie Code.

We are haunted by the spirits of those who fought, bled, cried out in pain and died in our midst trying to save our souls. Sometimes I believe that God reached down into red-clay graves and the dirty waters of the Mississippi and gathered up the souls of martyred natives like James Chaney, Henry Dee and Charles Moore and sprinkled them over our heads like seeds as a challenge to future Mississippians to change our hearts, our souls, our minds. What would the seeds grow? How fertile was the ground in the state that had reaped the most riches from slavery?

But many of us were silent for too long. Too many black citizens admit to giving up on white people caring about our whole history; or apologizing out of love and pain just because it doesn't cost a damn thing; or teaching our children what really happened, and what our own families helped do then, whether by action or non-action. They seem ready, not to forget, but to forgive, to move on as a united state. Too often, though, white Mississippians meet that readiness with silence and denial and defensiveness about the past, not to mention the effects of it that we all face now.

I know, because they like to tell me, that many white Mississippians have The Secret encoded inside them, too. Many defiantly fight the worthy scrap; others run, as I did, then are pulled back by that divine homing device within. This doesn't mean that any of us have a "Jesus complex," as one nasty (white) blogger said about me once, or that we believe we "speak for" the black community, as a nasty (black) blogger said about me recently. It means we are willing and compelled to work to complete the dream, that we want to see justice and understanding rolling down like waters, as Dr. King prayed for us all.

It means that we, like Mrs. Hamer and Rev. Ed King and newspaperwoman Hazel Brannon Smith and our own dear Medgar, are everyday people who are called to share The Secret, not to keep it locked away in our hearts until people are ready to hear it.

Now and then, God sends us a glorious outsider to challenge us. Dr. King came to my hometown and stood near the murderers of Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner, dodging beer bottles in the state most "sweltering in injustice," as he called it before he died for our sins. Northern Jews came down in droves to join with southern Christians to fight a battle that could not be won gradually—so that the rest of the country would pay attention.

Rev. Ross Olivier came here more recently from South Africa, where he had worked to end apartheid, to help today's complacent, and still divided, Christians understand the true meaning of the gospel he teaches. Whether in sermons at Galloway, or in spirited dinner talk, Rev. Olivier used the past to help us prepare for the future.

"Keep moving forward," Olivier challenged in his goodbye address Sunday to his congregation and his TV audience. He urged the mostly white audience to continue the "journey that those who came before us made so we could make it today."

The journey, he said, is "in our spiritual DNA." Create "good new days"; don't return to the so-called "good ole days."

If you understand our history, you know old times weren't good for all of us. And you heed their lessons.

Outsiders who get it challenge us to use the past to heal our future. Others assume we're no better than our history. People like The New York Times reporter who wrote a column belittling, er, analyzing our efforts to bring justice for young men like Dee and Moore, who wrote that a new generation of southerners are just looking for attention, or some such. Or documentary filmmakers who rewrite our efforts at overdue justice to leave out the role that native Mississippians are playing to right the wrongs of past generations, and to use them to teach future ones.

Or it's my friend sitting in Ruchi, asking with real curiosity when we can stop talking about the past and challenging whether the words "we're sorry" really amount to an apology, regardless of the pain behind them.

Sometimes it's simply outsiders' lack of understanding of our state, and our pain, and our shame, that confounds us, propelling us forward. But we will be lost if we are not armed with knowledge of how we got here.

The need to study our history is not tragic, nor should we view it as a burden to "get past." New generations of Mississippians, of all races, are what Dr. King called "the veterans of creative suffering."

Most of us did not deliver the blows, or feel our skulls crack from the pain, but we are their children and, thus, we can never forget. But those memories do not have to stifle us, or keep us divided; they are our bridge.

"Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive," Dr. King promised. He was right; the shame and pain become a bond when shared; there is glorious, calming redemption on the other side of an apology you give just because you know, and you care, not because you pulled the trigger.

The Secret is not that we have to talk about the past; it is that we must live it, breathe it, feel it now, even when people don't want us to. We all share history, for better or worse. What matters is whether we keep it locked away inside because it's too painful to admit, or whether we allow it to infuse everything we do to overcome the state's legacy.

There is no past; there is no future. There is only the fierce urgency of now.

(Correction appended.)

Previous Comments

ID

75896

Comment

Hurrah! Great thinking, DL - and your passion shows most admirably. This is a message that is hard for folks to hear. I know that white folks (like us) who are around us often wonder if we are supposed to feel personally guilty for the legacy of white privilege that we live in every day. That, I think, is why others tell us "that bad stuff is all past now - get over it." There are enough personal sins of commission and omission that we have to repent for; we don't want to feel guilty about what other people did, not us. But an honest accounting of the past is necessary, if we are ever to have a society of respect for our neighbors and a beloved community. If my stories of the past are important, so are my neighbors' stories. Their family memories of past oppression must be respected and treated as legitimate. What happened in the past affects the present. Faulkner's cliche: "The past isn't dead - it isn't even past." This is written, by the way, by another former Neshoban who grew up in that same place and time.

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-16T18:06:55-06:00

ID

75897

Comment

Great job, Donna. This stuff is never easy to talk about, but it has to be done. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-01-16T20:32:13-06:00

ID

75898

Comment

Thanks, guys. And hey you fellow Neshoba Countian! Nice comments. Thank you for sharing, and for reading.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T00:14:08-06:00

ID

75899

Comment

Folks, I just ran into a whole "citizen" blog post over on the Ledger's plucky new site, about my column above. OleMissExpatriate, who has expressed deep-seated disgust with my views on race in the past on his own blog, is much upset that I would dare write such a thing, I guess, or feel the way that I feel. He claims I would delete it here because I don't "agree" with it. (Giggle.) Actually, I relish the opportunity to hear the responses to it here, so here's part of it: Maybe, just maybe, our “little editor that could” over at “Alterna-Press” is merely venting her anger at herself and her childhood for being too young to do anything about the things she saw as a child. Or maybe living a childhood with family that emulated all the racial injustice that people could muster. I have news for you, “little editor that could,” the sins of the people in the past are not yours to bear and you are not responsible for the Klan, The Sovereignty Commission, The White Citizen’s Council, the murders of the civil right’s workers in Philadelphia and every other injustice that has ever occurred to black people in Mississippi. Neither are the people of today, that live, work, and survive in this state. We are our own people, who make our own destiny. I hope sincerely that destiny includes tolerance and acceptance, but I can only be responsible for my own actions. I cannot be responsible for the sins of my family, our government or all the white people of Mississippi. So for all of our sakes, here in Mississippi, I truly think the “little editor that could” should climb down off the cross and stop blaming everyone in sight for the sins of the past. I don't get called "little" very often, so I'm going to delight in that one while y'all ponder the greater messages at play here. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T00:16:12-06:00

ID

75900

Comment

What's wacky to me about it that someone like that gets so bent out of shape because *I* feel this way. What's it to him? Even if I think every white person in Mississippi should apologize to every black person every day for a year (which I don't; smile), why does that matter to this guy? It's that whole not-wanting-someone-to-think-differently-about-race thing that is so disturbing in the state. What's it to this dude what crosses I bear? Or think the state bears? What I find so interesting, and revealing, is the depth of emotion we see in response to white people saying stuff like this out loud. People like this seem to think they have a right to say it shouldn't be said at all. It's not open for discussion because it makes them uncomfortable. And that's exactly why we have to keep doing it. If I wrote such a column and no one responded that way, even I might start to think that these things no longer need to be said! ;-) But, alas, someone always proves my point better than I ever could.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T00:18:33-06:00

ID

75901

Comment

It's way to late me to respond and I'm no where near coherent BUT what's with the pop psychology analysis of your childhood? And that whole we-are-only-responsible for ourselves crap is why we continue to deal with modern day Holocausts. We don't want to feel any relationship to things that have happened in the past. It's not about responsibility but acknowledgment and dialog otherwise why don't we just close our history books? Who said anything about being responsible for the ancestors? That would be ridiculous.

Author

msgrits

Date

2008-01-17T02:49:22-06:00

ID

75902

Comment

We continually cite the example of the Holocaust as a story that must be forgotten. It should not be forgotten so that we can learn from history (why are we required to learn history in school, after all?) Another important tale is about "The Trail of Tears" for the Cherokee - and yet I hear nobody in North Carolina complain that the Cherokee perform "Unto these Hills" in an outdoor historical pageant every year. People want, and need, to remember their history - and we need to learn from their history, as well. Because of recent coverage, I now understand Thomas Jefferson as a more complicated person who struggled with the issues of the day; I think that kind of history lesson is much more useful to my children than the ones that put halos on all our great ancestors.

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-17T07:36:59-06:00

ID

75903

Comment

Who said anything about being responsible for the ancestors? That would be ridiculous. It would be, and that's why I didn't say it. Sadly, some of these guys go deaf, dumb and stupid as soon as they hear a white person (or anyone, frankly) try to talk about race. The difference between this and more aired-out episodes at this point, I think, is simply that it hasn't been aired out. Many of their parents and grandparents went mute on it and raised their kids to think that it would be horrifying, and some sort of bizarre admission of built, to even discuss those events or express regre that they happened. As a result, a lot of Mississippians don't even understand the links between the not-so-distant past, the really recent past (such as redlining) and the condition of today's inner cities, for instance. And they haven't experienced the wonderful feeling that having open conversations can give. They, instead, have that bunker mentality like the Ledger "citizen blogger." Sad.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T10:19:55-06:00

ID

75904

Comment

"little editor that could"??? i, for one, appreciate such editor, such conversations and such columns. jfp, it is into your pages... into you, i ferret. searching for myself.... when i was a 17 year old genius, who knew everything.... graphing calculator and i.q. in hand, i went off to the university of mississippi searching for deeper understandings of physics theorems. i stumbled across susan glisson, the white professor who was dreaming about constructing "an institute for racial reconciliation". there were 7 or 8 of us... students who stumbled across her, and called ourselves s.e.e.d. (students envisioning equality through diversity). i was put off, at first, by the white girl sitting across from me. blond hair. bob marley t shirt. difficult, is an adjective that understates the conditions of our first conversations. but. these are the very conversations that are foundational to a burgeoning movement towards healing the incidents that scar the face of our states torrid past. (continued next post)

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T11:35:07-06:00

ID

75905

Comment

such conversations taught me that it was ingenious to understand that i did not, indeed, know everything. that it was prerequisite to healing to give voice to every converser dining at the table. interestingly, when we sojourned to selma, alabama to help residents in the push to get rid of joe smitherman (the former mayor)... i was ignorant of the history of both bloody sunday and the edmund pettis bridge. i stepped out of susans truck and onto the bridge, stretching my arms in the sun. before i could gather up the breath to exhale, an overwhelming and abstract sense of despair brought me to my knees. we are figuratively and literally, in such ways, connected to and haunted by a past filled with occurences, people, attitudes that deserve voice in our conversations. smitherman passed us, later, marching in the streets. he cocked an imaginary trigger finger at susan. ignored the black marchers among us completely. however, he referred to her as an "outside dissenter". the harrassment she received was particularly sharp edged. nasty... (continued next post)

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T11:40:29-06:00

ID

75906

Comment

however, now, years later... if you search my alma mater's website, you will find that the university of mississippi does indeed boast an "institute for racial reconciliation". director? none other than susan glisson. it takes the dreams, the conversations, the shared experiences of all of us in order to continue to make appropriate steps towards a present that eclipses the ghastliness of our past. we were guaranteed in the first amendment to our very own beloved constitution, freedoms of speech and of the press. and yet, there are still those that prefer that we continue to pay for those freedoms in the currency of silence. we have to have these conversations. editors who are brave enough to give voice to such realities as those that might be more easily and craftily swept under the rug of things past. however, it will only guarantee that we will continue to stub our toes on such places in the future. conversations in the present, in my opinion, are prerequisite. the greater the possible implications of such conversations and the more potent the toxins held within such secrets... the more venomous the words of those who seek to silence conversation and the more dedicated they are to protect it. keep speaking. all the editors and directors that can, do build institutes and dialogues that reconcile.

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T11:48:50-06:00

ID

75907

Comment

What wonderful thoughts, eargasism. Don't worry: We will only get louder every time someone tries to silence us. One of the things that breaks my heart the most about our home state is how a handful of people have managed to belittle others into silence over the years. That era is past. The floodgates are open. And all the pop-psychotic insults will continue to roll off this editor's back and egg me on. And yes, Susan Glisson. She has been an inspiration for me as well. And, yes, you can and do get the arrows fired in a different way when you're a white woman trying to break through the walls of silence on these issues, but that just means that you swing the sledgehammer harder and faster, to mix metaphors. The best part, though, is unexpected to many. The overwhelming responses to our efforts at dialogue, by people of all races, in and out of the state, have been positive and akin to what you just wrote (though not always so eloquently!). There is such a small handful of complaints, and ugly bloggers who want to silence us, that they are the novelty and the oddity. And that's the part that probably drives those folks the craziest. They're not getting leverage, even as they believe the ability and right to silence is their birthright. It's a fun about-face to watch happen here in ole Mississlop, as my mama used to call our state. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T12:00:34-06:00

ID

75908

Comment

eureka! this is the quote i was searching for... “Forgiving does not erase the bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future.” -lewis b. smedes the past is a memory. the future, a dream. the present, a gift.

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T12:19:10-06:00

ID

75909

Comment

Nice one, eargasism. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future. That's it exactly.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T12:30:47-06:00

ID

75910

Comment

Donna wrote above, "There is no past; there is no future. There is only the fierce urgency of now." How true!!! It reminds me of RENT, which just announced it's closing this June. MARK: There Is No Future - There Is No Past ROGER: Thank God This Moments [sic] Not The Last RENT lyrics

Author

thespis

Date

2008-01-17T12:40:21-06:00

ID

75911

Comment

I've never seen RENT, and I lived in the East Village during the time that it depicts! I need to hurry, I guess. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T13:55:07-06:00

ID

75912

Comment

If you wonder why race is still a major issue today, it is because at every point, a good number of people have wanted to avoid real conversations about it. When I study history, there have always been people that said things were okay and whatever is going is no big deal if people would stop meddling. That includes the period during slavery. To me, its not about folks liking me because I am black, it is about people being real. If you like me fine, if you do not, fine. But do not be the type of person that likes to act like you do not have a problem with people of other races and keep the pot stirred. I could have misheard, but while listening to WJNT this morning, I could have sworn that Larry Nesbit said they would be back Monday on Robert E. Lee's birthday. True enough Robert E. Lee was added to the day to appease the folks angry about MLK getting a day. But I think it is awfully cowardly of this guy who claims to be a Christian to always do these back handed slights of the black community. Anyone that knows monday is Robert E. Lee Day, also knows that it is MLK Day. If we were in the early part of the 1900s, I would challenge people like Nesbit to a duel to see if they will stand behind their positions. If I am mistaken, I apologize, but I surely took him mentioning monday as Robert E. Lee Day without mentioning MLK as a disrespectful act. Why did we allow the two to be linked up anyway?

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-17T14:02:52-06:00

ID

75913

Comment

Don't state offices still close on Confederate Day, or whatever it's called!?!

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T14:12:48-06:00

ID

75914

Comment

fyi... (to all interested parties) when researching such topics last week, i found this site helpful http://www.sos.state.ms.us/ed_pubs/Proclamations/ yes, mississippi observes both robert e. lee's and martin luther king's, simultaneously. i'm sure i don't have to continue....

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T14:18:15-06:00

ID

75915

Comment

Yea, there is a state holiday called Confederate Memorial Day. Interesting that the only history we want to celebrate and maintain is the unflattering variety. Why should we celebrate that?

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-17T14:19:35-06:00

ID

75916

Comment

...298, 299, 300. Ok. Let's Celebrate Hilter and Jesus' birthday together too? Or is that too extreme?

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-17T14:25:31-06:00

ID

75917

Comment

Golden, you make a good point. It's the hypocrisy of people who pretend they don't "notice" race, but then do all sorts of things to keep race issues stirred up who are the most confounding.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T14:26:08-06:00

ID

75918

Comment

Golden, you bad boy you. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T14:26:43-06:00

ID

75919

Comment

Donna, my wife listened to talk radio and almost had our baby 5 months too early. She picked right up on the inuendo and subtle hints a lot of the hosts drop. I would respect them more if they just came out and said how they really felt. Mississippi has a ways to go. Nobody should be able to get on a radio station and say some of things I hear on WJNT without having blowback. Its because we live in a state that would make Robert E. Lee and MLK share a holiday and on top of that have a seperate Confederate Memorial Day. I have a complaint. Donna does not have to wait 300 seconds to post like the rest of us!

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-17T14:35:18-06:00

ID

75920

Comment

I think this is a wonderful article, Donna Ladd. A wound rarely gets better if you just ignore it. If you pay it no mind and don’t nurture it or acknowledge it, it is likely to get infected. It might scab over, but it doesn’t take much to tear the scab and re-open the wound. Then you are just back to where you started. Of course there will always be a scar as a reminder, but it won’t be as big and ugly if you let the wound heal like it should …by acknowledging it and treating it. And with time, even the redness of the scar fades. It is hard to understand why a person, such as the citizen blogger, is so uncomfortable with and fearful of someone suggesting that we air out the ugly past. Especially when he claims to “hope sincerely that destiny includes tolerance and acceptance.” He can hope all he wants, but tolerance and acceptance do not just appear out of thin air and decide to stick around for a while. It is easy to take a cowardly way out, ignore the wound, and just keep our fingers crossed that things will heal and go away. A quote by one of my favorites, Tori Amos - “Healing takes courage, and we all have courage, even if we have to dig a little to find it.”

Author

ellen

Date

2008-01-17T14:48:03-06:00

ID

75921

Comment

Thanks, Ellen. Jeez, I haven't listened to Tori Amos in a while. Used to love to, though. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T14:50:47-06:00

ID

75922

Comment

[quote]Dr. King came to my hometown and stood near the murderers of Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner, dodging beer bottles in the state most “sweltering in injustice,” as he called it before he died for our sins.[/quote] Donna, Jesus Christ died for my sins. Not King. He died because he pointed out the idocy of hate to a generation not ready to hear about it. Try not to confuse the two.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-01-17T15:06:52-06:00

ID

75923

Comment

I don't believe they are mutually exclusive, Ironghost. Martyrs do die for other people's sins. That doesn't mean that Jesus Christ didn't. Try not to confuse the two. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T15:08:04-06:00

ID

75924

Comment

Mirriam Webster, the Wikipedia and you need to get together and have a chat over the real meaning. 'Cause the first two don't agree with you at all. :) At best, a martyr dies for a value. Christ didn't simply die for a value, but something greater.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-01-17T15:37:32-06:00

ID

75925

Comment

What exactly do you mean by "a value," Iron? And bear in mind that you're the one setting up a competition between Dr. King and Jesus Christ here, Iron, not me. I believe there is enough love out there that both could have died to help society overcome her sins. And it seems apparent that the love of one drove the other one to be so fearless. How beautiful is that?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T15:41:08-06:00

ID

75926

Comment

Cause Mirriam Webster and Wikipedia(edited everyday by us mere mortals) are the end all and be all of meaning and definition. Actually I could go in to Wikipedia right now and change the definition to reflect whatever I wanted. I'm huge Wikipedia fan but Wiki anything has it's limits.

Author

msgrits

Date

2008-01-17T15:43:38-06:00

ID

75927

Comment

since we're using merriam webster and wikipedia as the ultimate standards for "real meaning", then i suppose it would be worth your time to delve into the definitions of the term "sin" as well, iron. since "sin" is one of the terms tossed around in your original post.... not that i think that it's necessary to set up some type of archaic celebrity sin death match between the two martyrs. because i don't.

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T15:56:04-06:00

ID

75928

Comment

Eargasism, you do have a way with words. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T15:58:01-06:00

ID

75929

Comment

=) msgrits - i am a huge wikipedia fan as well. however................. you know, when i first posted on this site this morning, i said something about open conversations. open dialogue. i've always been a proponent of such. however, i find it not only testimony to what i was saying, but also utterly ridiculous that shortly after expressing CANDIDLY my views about such, i was contacted INDIRECTLY with what i consider to be an attempted slander campaign. i don't really care if i'm banned from the boards for saying it. i have no respect for such. none. none. none. this post is totally off the subject. but i believe that's the point. to detract from the subject, the validity, the interest, the support. i won't participate in that anymore. it's junvenile. ridiculous that i have to privatize my contact information, because i freely voiced my opinion and support.

Author

eargasism

Date

2008-01-17T16:10:48-06:00

ID

75930

Comment

I'm sorry about that, eargasism. The good news is that this only happens sporadically, it involves very few people (two, mostly), and it all goes directly back to our frankness about race issues. I know the slander campaign you mean. And it is. There are things being sent around in those e-mails that are half-truths at best, inaccurate at worst, and all without anyone ever calling to ask us one single thing. But, frankly, there will *always* be those who try to silence voices and stifle efforts to end division and rebuild cities like Jackson. But they are the minority if we don't give them too much power. Thanks for joining us. I hope you stick around for a while.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-17T16:17:52-06:00

ID

75931

Comment

Folks, someone I admire greatly just called to point out that I, stupidly, typed Ben Chaney in the column above, rather than James Chaney. And I hadn't even noticed it yet. How silly of me, being from Neshoba County and obsessed my whole life with that case! I apologize, especially to Ben, who is most certainly still alive and kicking (hard). I'll go fix it in the copy above and run a correction next week. And to Dr. Young: thank you, thank you for calling.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T08:32:08-06:00

ID

75932

Comment

Ya'll know I don't get to debate much here anymore, don't you? :) Okay... [quote]And bear in mind that you're the one setting up a competition between Dr. King and Jesus Christ here, Iron, not me. [/quote] No, Donna, you started with the "Dr King died for your sins" comment. I pointed out Dr King has nothing to do with getting anyone into heaven. Your slip, not mine. I've had people try that little debate trick on me for years and I'm not falling for it. As for the comments about Wiki being mutable and all, I say that I am very much aware that wikipedia isn't meant to be that trustworthy. I merely mentioned it as a place to start the debate from. I trust actual dictionaries and respectable encylopedias more.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-01-18T08:54:54-06:00

ID

75933

Comment

Someone once said "A foolish simplicity is the hogoblin of small minds". Just because she says "he died for our sins" does not mean that he died so we can go to heaven. If we are truly Christians then we would try to be like him which might lead to making the ultimate sacrifice in such violent times. One could validly say that Benazir Bhutto died for the sins of her country. Did she die so they could get to the 77 virgins? It appears that the error may be in the myopia of the reader.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-01-18T11:04:32-06:00

ID

75934

Comment

To Whit: A. Don't mistake me for ignorant or a fool. B. Don't mistake my needling Donna over a poor word choice for any serious misconstruing of what she meant. I got the gist of the sentence when I read it. Thanks!

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-01-18T11:07:33-06:00

ID

75935

Comment

Someone once said "A foolish simplicity is the hogoblin of small minds". --Ralph Waldo Emerson (abolitionist).

Author

Willezurmacht

Date

2008-01-18T11:30:29-06:00

ID

75936

Comment

Ironghost, my word choice is very intentional wordplay; you can believe it's "poor," but that is simply your opinion and doesn't change anything, with due respect.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T11:49:16-06:00

ID

75937

Comment

Oy. Nevermind, Donna. I don't go to church to worship Dr. King. Let's leave it at that.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-01-18T15:33:49-06:00

ID

75938

Comment

No one said you did, Ironghost. In fact, I don't think I mentioned "church." Let's leave it at that.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T15:34:49-06:00

ID

75939

Comment

I think it was silly to take that jab at Donna because if you look at her statement, Dr. King died because of the sins of others. That is how I took it. He put his life on the line knowing that it would cost him. He had to know that. Folks like Ironghost want to play devils advocate on things like that, but the truth is, the racial issue is still alive and kicking. Maybe he does not understand that to me putting MLKs day together with Robert E. Lee is worse than not having it. Or that we even have a Confederate Memorial Day is ignorant. He would rather argue a meaningless point over the intent of someone else's words. How about we deal with the messages our state and other states convey since you are so good at decoding.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T16:14:08-06:00

ID

75940

Comment

Maybe Emmerson should have said "a stubborn simplicity..." :-).

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-01-18T16:25:07-06:00

ID

75941

Comment

Maybe he does not understand that to me putting MLKs day together with Robert E. Lee is worse than not having it. I feel the same way, Golden. It is insulting for me that, because I'm white, I'm assumed to support the celebration of heroes of the pro-slavery crowd until and unless I choose to prove otherwise. In other words, I don't dig being considered a racist by default. But it's up to us—white folk—to change that default setting. To his credit, I know that Iron likes to be curmudgeony (sp?) and play devil's advocate, and I like him because he does that. But it is hard to watch fellow white people so predictably hone in on something small in a piece like this to try to pick it apart rather than deal with the big issue on the plate. But not everyone does that. Earlier today, I had a wonderful phone message from a southern-sounding man who described himself as a 45-year-old white Anglo Saxon man "who grew up in the middle of all that." He was calling because the column, he said, was "right on" and needed to said, capturing his feelings exactly. I recorded it and added it to the collection of such voice messages I've gotten over the years that, singlehandedly, disprove stereotypes about Mississippians. (And it's much bigger than the folder of the ugly recordings.) It's one thing to post on the Web site about it, but it's another to feel compelled to pick up the phone and call a complete stranger like me to talk about race issues in Mississippi. I was humbled and delighted by the message. I love Mississippi.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T17:01:00-06:00

ID

75942

Comment

Ladd, Why would it make you a racist because you celebrates Robert E. Lee's birthday? There was a lot more to his life than the four years he spent in the Confederate Army. He spent 32yrs in the U.S. Army and is still considered one of the best tactial commanders ever and his tactics are still studied at West Point. He was president of Washington and Lee College after the war. You need to learn more about him.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-18T17:54:02-06:00

ID

75943

Comment

I'm curious, Bubba. Which other great "tactical commanders" have holidays? Is there one that coincides with, say, Washington's birthday? Or Columbus day? Or perhaps Jesus' birthday? Maybe it's simply coincidence that his falls on the same day as King's? I am perfectly capable of knowing, or of learning, about Robert E. Lee without celebrating his birthday, wouldn't you say?

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T18:07:24-06:00

ID

75944

Comment

It's a coincidence because Robert E Lee day was established in 1889 and his birthday is Jan 19. and Martin L. King day was in established in 1983 and first observed in 1986, his birthday is Jan 15. The state of Mississippi chose the third Monday in Jan. for Lee almost 100 years before U.S. gov't chose the same day for MLK day. It wasn't done to be some sort of slight to MLK. Just happend that way. Do you think the state should do away with Lee day? And if you do Why?

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-18T18:39:28-06:00

ID

75945

Comment

Before I answer your last question, tell me if the state celebrates any other generals/military leaders with holidays. I really don't know.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T18:45:10-06:00

ID

75946

Comment

You know they don't. It celebrates his birthday because he was the commander of the Confederate Army and you know that too.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-18T19:04:15-06:00

ID

75947

Comment

OK, then. Yes, I believe the state should do away with Lee day. And I didn't know, by the way. What this state celebrates, and doesn't, continually amazes me.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T19:13:39-06:00

ID

75948

Comment

While we're on the topic of the Civil War, here's a link to Mississippi's Articles of Secession. Just in case anyone is confused about why we fought that war, whose hero general our state commemorates with his own holiday: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-18T19:18:49-06:00

ID

75949

Comment

To the South, Robert E. Lee's greatest accomplishment was leading the Confederacy. As a black man, he was not a hero to me because if he had succeeded in his goal, I might not have the "freedom" to be blogging and talking all uppity as I am now. So, I will say without hesitation that I think Robert E. Lee should be remembered, but not honored with a holiday. From my perspective, the Confederacy represented the wrong side of history and do not need to be honored for that position.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T19:21:34-06:00

ID

75950

Comment

Ladd, history has no relevance in this discussion. Bringing it up is a complete was of time. Bubba explained away Lee's holiday as being for things other than leading the rebellion in the Civil War. However, that would not explain the state "one up"ing that with the Confederate Memorial Day holiday. People say that blacks need to get over slavery, but they want to hold on to every image and individual of that era that they can.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T19:33:29-06:00

ID

75951

Comment

History has great relevance. You have to remember the mistakes and horrors of the past, to not repeat them in the furture. Goldenae, I said the Lee Day was holiday because he was the leader of the Confederate Army, but he did other things he should be remember for too.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-18T20:43:52-06:00

ID

75952

Comment

I know, Lee was a great president of Washington College, and they renamed it Washington & Lee College for his gallant leadership. But that is not unique enough to deserve a spot on the calendar alongside Washington, Lincoln, and King. Not even other presidents get a day like that. I do think however that something of that nation-changing event called the Civil War should be remembered. I did not say celebrated, but remembered. We don't celebrate Memorial Day, either; we (at our best) mourn the loss of so many lives for important causes. Perhaps that's the way that some memory of the Civil War should be remembered. But perhaps it should be marked in April, when the War was finally over. [By the way, the advocates for a day for MLK originally desired to mark the fifteenth, but they soon learned that they weren't going to get the votes unless they were willing to go for a Monday marker.] You know, ladd, the Confederate statue in Philadelphia came down in a storm almost ten years ago; local folks raised the money to put it back up. (I think that shows that God wanted it down, but the folks put it up again, anyway). That moment in history they want remembered - but a local poll showed that Neshobans were decisively against establishing the state's new civil rights museum in Neshoba County. Some things are saved and protected, others are avoided. “What the memory repudiates controls the human being,” wrote James Baldwin; “what one does not remember is the serpent in the garden of one’s dreams."

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-18T21:21:46-06:00

ID

75953

Comment

Bubba, well, let us honor him in a museum. Because as I said, in addition to his list of accomplishments, if he had succeeded in the Civil War, our interaction would be much different. I do not have a problem with remembering him, but honoring him is out of the question. You are in denial about what the Civil War, the Confederacy and all that was about. I can not think of anything about either that black people should be jumping up and down about. The Confederate flags that we still see today are just a way for people to stick their finger in the eye of Abe Lincoln and the Union. Be honest about what Lee is honored for.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T21:22:51-06:00

ID

75954

Comment

Footsy, Memorial Day is absolutely a celebration. Its a celebration of the people who gave their lives in defense of this country. In contrast, the Confederacy and Lee represented the losing side, not to mention the wrong side. They deserve to be remembered, but honored is a totally different thing. To honor them in any way is to discount what their intent was. Sometimes we look at historical figures absent their actions. Some people admire Hitler, but you have to evaluate his entire life and the costs of his ambitions. Persuasive, yes, intelligent, yes, leader, yes. But horrible man. No holiday for Hilter.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T21:30:38-06:00

ID

75955

Comment

Hitler is a distraction. But there might be good reasons to remember Krystallnacht (sp?). I don't think of remembering our war dead as a "celebration." There are moments of silence, ceremonies that involve the laying wreaths of memory and placing flowers on the tombs of the dead, including the unknown soldiers. But none of that fits my definition of "celebration." The Fourth of July is a celebration. Yes, I think the Confederates were not only the losers but in it for the wrong reason. But we need to remember that event; it shaped our nation in profound ways. It decided finally that "e pluribus unum" ultimately emphasizes the "unum"; the national interest predominates against individual states' interests. Remembering the Civil War, to me, makes more sense than Flag Day as a reason to have a "holy day".

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-18T21:40:43-06:00

ID

75956

Comment

That is what museums are for. And I should have clarified my position. To me, holidays are for honoring or celebrating or a combination of both. Neither of which I feel for the Confederacy. That type of history needs to be in books and museums. Name some other misguided action that we honor. Memorial Day is not about the death, but the life of those soldiers. Memorials are not to honor the tragedy, but to remember the fallen. In every case I can think of, the fallen were innocent. We generally do not make memorials to folks that chose to do the wrong thing.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T21:50:55-06:00

ID

75957

Comment

We respectfully disagree. And I can appreciate your point of view.

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-18T21:52:51-06:00

ID

75958

Comment

Healing is an interesting task. Almost inextricably linked to the ideas of personal health, healing as an art is often constrained to the personal and internal. When confronted with the idea of healing, our first response is to think of ourselves. This prompts many to reject the notion that healing needs to occur because they reject the notion that there is anything wrong with them personally. When discussing the complexities of cultural mores, it is often lost that we co-create this environment that we live in. No one person is an end in themselves. People are growths of their communities and exist in relation to others and the institutions we create. Healing misconceptions of our past and the products they yield is a matter of examining the institutions and cultural practices which have flourished in the present. People seem to be deathly afraid that a process of healing will begin with finger-pointing. This cannot be the case. Healing must be a journey that we set out on together. Healing must be a series of shared reflections, anecdotes, and stories. Healing, far from being a personal affair, comes from sharing ones laughter and tears openly and honestly. The truth is that we are already in the process of healing. (Albeit not very far along.) When slaves ran away - when white folks stood with blacks for justice - when schools became integrated and water fountains became shared - healing was afoot. As we meet on college campuses to confront racial prejudice, as we debate across the dinner table, as we stand in solidarity outside the nations capitol - healing is afoot. Those who would seek to deny the very fact of racial inequality only stop the healing at their own heart for justice is the natural order and justice is our ultimate destination. Healing will occur around them until they are swept up themselves. And when they are it will hurt - they will cry - and hopefully, someone will be there to offer them an embrace. The racism of our not too distant past has left fissures in our social fabric which are evident in the structures of our society. From education to city services, opportunity to predispositions of the elite - race has played and plays a factor in the wheres and whys. Even the blind will one day see. (And i will personally elevate MLK to the status of ol' JC)

Author

daniel johnson

Date

2008-01-18T21:56:26-06:00

ID

75959

Comment

Let us look at it this way, if I wanted to honor the British and guys like Benedict Arnold for the Revolutionary War, the vast majority of Americans would think it was a crazy idea. The reason is because the Revolutionary War represents and attempt to keep Americans subjects of Britain. I think everyone can relate to that, but it seems so difficult for people to relate to how most African Americans view the Confederacy. I would no more want to "honor" the Brits for what they wanted to do than I want to honor the Confederacy. I have never held a white person speak fondly of what the Revolutionary War was about like they do the Civil War.It seems like a no-brainer, but obviously its not.

Author

Goldenae

Date

2008-01-18T22:19:09-06:00

ID

75960

Comment

I keep trying to pull out of this - but you keep dragging me back in, Goldenae. This will be my last comment, then I'm pulling out, because I'm flying to Mississippi today (in all this bad weather). Deal with Vietnam. We were the losers in that war, at least in a lot of people's minds, and the reasons we went into it would be defined by the victors as the wrong reasons. That, I think, is a closer parallel to the Civil War history of memorials. Now, please notice that I do not personally carry the cause of the Confederacy in my own mind, never have. But a lot of poor farmers and workers were there because they felt resistant to a federal government telling them how it was going to be. Brundage put out a great collection of essays called "Where these Memories Grow" about Southerneres and memory; one of the essays n fact dealt with how white Southerners of the Civil War era remembered the Revolutionary War.

Author

footsy

Date

2008-01-19T07:33:31-06:00

ID

75961

Comment

History has great relevance. You have to remember the mistakes and horrors of the past, to not repeat them in the furture. Of course that's true, Bubba. That's what the column above is about, obviously. But there is a HUGE difference between remembering and honoring. No sane person would argue that Germany should honor Hitler—or more apropos to this, one of his great military strategists—with a day in order for people not to forget the horrible thing that they fought for. The same goes here: It is a smokescreen to argue that the leader of the Confederate Army needs a "day" in order to study his pros and cons. Ridiculous. Meantime, we're lucky if we can get civil rights taught in our schools. It is simply a sign of how far we have yet to go. Future generations of Mississippians are going to take the Confederate emblem out of the flag, drop Lee and Confederate Day, and might even change the name of Forrest County for good form. And these discussions today are part of the process of bringing that progress to Mississippi (and part of the reason they upset some people so). So I thank everyone for participating in them, especially Bubba. ;-)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-01-19T09:50:21-06:00

ID

75962

Comment

Per the User Agreement, I have deleted several comments under this story (by eargasism, ladd and others) about fraudulent e-mail that have nothing to do with the topic of the story. I did leave one by eargsaism that was relevant to this thread. Going forward, all commentary about fraudulent e-mails should be posted here. Thank you, Admin

Author

admin1

Date

2008-01-19T10:38:16-06:00

ID

75963

Comment

Do we need a day to honor Lee as the leader fo the Confederate Army? No. Should he be forgotten? No, because he was more than that in life. Here is an opinion article from the National Geographic that I found about how racist dishonor him. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0907_smithgenlee.html Donna, thanks it's always fun dicussing things with you.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-19T16:12:11-06:00

ID

75964

Comment

Great column, Donna. Don't worry about the haters of you and like-minded people for facing our demons and trying to move forward. Some people can't get past the tactics of the disgraced Sovereigntry Commission (Government created), which decided instead of facing the truth and making real changes as required by law and morality, to create a publicity or public relations committee charged with ignoring and manufacturing facts, lying, distorting and denying Mississippi's past deeds, for the obvious and expressed purpose of maintaining the southern racist way of life. These stupid tactics have failed us miserably for over 50 years and have kept us from moving on as a coalition or unit as the neon light we're capable of becoming. Yet holdover morons who too often default into defining our state's image, still in gross ignorance ask the enlightened when will we stop talking about the truth. What makes these nuts think intelligent people will ever stopping talking about the truth and finally cave in to their outdated and primitive longings, desires and requests to live a lie - that the past is dead, doesn't matter or has no lingering legacy that has to be dealt with. There can be no moving on or healing for those imbeciles until they learn truth, honesty and reckoning precede healing and moving on.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2008-01-20T15:00:48-06:00

ID

75965

Comment

Nicely said, Ray. Nicely said.

Author

Kacy

Date

2008-01-20T15:27:07-06:00

ID

75966

Comment

BubbaT, i might be a cynic, but i really hope you're not buying everything they're selling in that National Geographic article.

Author

eyerah

Date

2008-01-22T13:47:55-06:00

ID

75967

Comment

Eyerah, what part of it are you not believing?

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-01-23T18:22:01-06:00