Ellington

Hey folks, I need your feedback. I'd love to hear some response to this analogy I posted in response to an alt editor's use of the n-word when referring to a white friend of his (this analogy was suggested by JFP staff members during a conversation about this incident, to give credit where its due):

It could compel some potential good hires of various races to turn away from our papers, or not to even consider us in the first place—simply because we do not show enough understanding of why the phrase was so wrong (as would have the use of "my ______"; fill in with a gay, Jewish, Latino or Asian one-word perjorative). And it could cost us readers, especially new ones who aren't as familiar with the alternative press and our mission and history.

I've had response that says it's not analagous to substitute the other perjoratives because they have not been "taken back" and used by their victims as the n-word has by African Americans. I'm seen other comments in the blogosphere that argue that the use of the word in this context was not offensive because (a) black people use it and (b) because it was a white man saying it about a white man and clearly his intent was not to be racist.

So my questions for y'all are varied. If you're a member of a historically disciminated against group, how would you feel if a word for your culture (k*ke or sp*ck, g**ks or even f*g) was used in this way? If you're black, does it affect your reaction because you know that some in the black community now use n*gger? How do you respond to those who say it's different from, say, substituting the k-word or the sp-word or the g-word because those words have not been taken back?

And, regardless of your race, could a similar episode color (sorry) your decision about working in a particular industry/newsroom/company and so on?

All respectful opinions are welcome on this; I'd like to think about this in as rich and varied a way as possible. Thanks, as always.

Previous Comments

ID

118583

Comment

To me, any word that is used to dehumanize another person is wrong, regardless of who's using it. I would be offended if a white person used the n-word at me. I'm just as offended when said by another black person, though I'll admit, I tend to let it slide by. I just don't use the term myself. If such words were being used in the workplace, it would make me question whether if I would want to be there. That could be a tell-tale sign of how hostile the work environment could be.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2008-04-15T08:40:24-06:00

ID

118584

Comment

Donna, I have dear hetero friends who call me fag... homo homie... etc... doesn't bother me because i know the intent behind the deliverer. One key to my acceptance of this is that it is done in a private setting... The alt editor, as I understand it, said this in a public setting... If he and I were friends, and he referred to me as his favorite fag while at a public event, he would quickly realize the wrath of one upset gay man. He was totally out of line to use the n word... and in public... and on a white man? How cheesy / inappropriate / embarrassing is that.... Of course, I am coming from a place where I giggle at all the white folks tryin' to be so black. I don't think white folks have the right to use the n word in any setting, whether its the "er" version or the "a" version - we just don't own that right and we never will. Regarding the whole "it's taken back" situation - I don't think any of these words can ever be taken back. They are soaked in a history of hate that will contaminate them forever. So I think you're right on the money.

Author

bryanms

Date

2008-04-15T09:10:38-06:00

ID

118585

Comment

As far as the N-word goes, I don't like it regardless of who says it, but I also have enough sense to know that I cannot control the speech of adults who are free to say what they want when they are with their family and friends. All I can do is express how I feel and hope that I influence others in a way that will make them think twice about using the word. The most I can do on my own is control my own speech and my own behavior and pray that others will one day "get it." However, in a public setting, the game changes. The speaker must be considerate of everyone that is listening and not say anything that could be considered offensive to others who are not like you. If the speaker who uttered a racial slur was a part of an organization I considered working for, I would change my mind because I would assume that a black woman like myself would not be treated fairly.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-04-15T10:05:34-06:00

ID

118586

Comment

I'm a disabled person with multi-racial overtones. I see myself as a disabled person first and foremost. I'm a disabled person when I'm with white people, and I'm a disabled person when I'm with black people. So, which race really doesn't matter to me except that I've usually been more accepted and treated better by black people. I learned early that there's a low glass ceiling for me working for able bodied people. So, I wouldn't work for a company that is insensitive to language and I'm very choosey about who I let into my life. I have some talents, and I'm a totally outrageous person - that's the reason for "willdufauve" if you play with the letters and know art history - and I've cobbled together a good life while also being totally, profoundly marginalized. I don't like when people call me crippled. Differently abled is too precious and makes me cringe. I define me, I don't let others define me. I don't like hearing the "N" word. It de-humanizes and defines power and position. Words can define reality, ie; naming theory, and words can cut to the bone. But after you're cut to the bone, you still have to be who you are and cobble together a life. But the name they call you is what they think of you.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-15T11:02:32-06:00

ID

118587

Comment

Thanks for the honest comments, all. Let me push it a little further if I may. When a white person makes a racial gaffe (whether on the level of Imus about black people, Lott celebrating a segregated past in his choice of words honoring his friend, or Lacey saluting his white friend with a racial epithet used as term of endearment), is it important for white people, especially, to speak up about it? Some of the comments I've seen out there–and that we've all heard about things locally–is that commenting on it makes it bigger than it is, especially in Lacey's case when he wasn't talking about a black person. So my question is: How important is white response and/or outrage at episodes like this? Is it appreciated and taken seriously by you? Is it important? If there is no white response, does that say anything or not? What? It's no secret to people who read this site regularly that I fear that white people define the parameters of these kinds of dialogues too often, making assumptions on what is important even to non-whites. I would welcome thoughts, one way or the other, on that idea.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-15T11:10:54-06:00

ID

118588

Comment

I still think occasional lapses of language are a symptom, not the root problem. There's a school of thought that racism is a white problem and only white people can address it, "whiteness theory." (As a practical choice, it's usually safer in liberal communities where white people organize after an incident than in conservative communities where people see no benefit to themselves from facing up to it.) Another aspect is when these kinds of incidents happen, and there are certain black people in a community who always minimize and excuse it. No group is monolithic, but it only takes one apologist to end any dialog and change. I think it's very important whether or not there's a white response. It shows the bigots that they don't have support from their own "side."

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-15T11:31:19-06:00

ID

118589

Comment

That's interesting, will. I was currently thinking about the message that a lack of white response sends to people of color. But you're pointing out the message that it sends to bigots. Certainly, that was true in my hometown, this state (and the nation) when I was growing up. Silence became the justification for anything bigots wanted to do (coupled, of course, with the loud support they also got). I've grown up with the belief that silence speaks just as loudly as racist rhetoric. Is it trivializing to say that silence on an issue like this one (Lacey) matters in the same way that it matters on, say, what Imus said? The other thing that keeps me awake at night over situations like this is the whole issue of white people defining what matters, or should matter, about these situations. I'm in a fairly unique (sadly) situation of hearing both the white perspective and that of people of color. So often, they just don't match up. One of the saddest things a black staffer said to me after hearing about this incident is that such gaffes are why so many people of color think that all white people think this way, or talk this way behind closed doors. That's a heart-breaking thing to hear. (Sounds like a good time for Queen to chime in as well. Oh, Queen ...) Of course, it's a cyclical conversation. We don't know how the "other side" feels because we don't want to talk about it (perhaps out of shame or pain). And the other side feels that way because we refuse to talk about it.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-15T11:42:10-06:00

ID

118590

Comment

(For the record, the lack of returns is cramping my commenting style. Soon. Ommmm.)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-15T11:45:56-06:00

ID

118591

Comment

I think another response to Lacey could be to not make such a big deal out of it, take him aside, educate him, and let him apologize publicly in a less inflamed situation with less drama and more clarity. Maybe. I know a professor type social justice advocate, a black woman PhD asscoiated with a major university, who only sends white males as consultants on racism to her corporate and industry clients. She/they beleive white CEO's are more likely to listen to another white male corporate type about racism. Maybe. Aside from the politics of all the well paid anti-racism jobs going to a white male, there's a kind of logic to that approach. Maybe. If there's no white response, it tells me what that white community is like compared to others. Ant-Racism work is a quagmire. Like quicksand. The more you struggle the deeper you get. The leaders were all assassinated or marginalized. One can't just stop working on it but it's all pain, little gain. We moved to Hawaii for awhile because my wife wanted to experience living in a culture that had no history of slavery. We learned something very interesting but I can't say it publicly.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-15T12:03:39-06:00

ID

118592

Comment

Laddie, your staffer is mostly right. But it isn't that most white people think that way It's that we're all imbued with ways of thinking. There really isn't that much thinking going on. Thinking is more conscious. Imbued with racism in the culture is imbued. I thought that being a "multi-racial" I was going to be a guide, or interpreter, through racial territory helping encourage understanding on both sides. It dead ends. Imbued is imbued. My conclusion, at the end of my life, is all I can do is try to re-name racial reality by creating positive images.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-15T12:23:16-06:00

ID

118599

Comment

One of my best friends from my undergrad days is light enough to pass for white. His mother is African American and his father is white. He once told me that his white roomates (who did not know he had an Af/Am mother) had been using the N word and saying derogatory things about Af/am people. THAT kind of revelation is what is more apt to make us think that this is a widespread phenomenon because what you do in secret is more revealing than a public faux what ya ma call it. Bread eaten in secret is (so) delicious. (Proverbs) There is something to be said for things being open as opposed to secreted away. That comment would not stop me from working at the paper because I do assume that many others make comments behind closed doors (that we can't hear) and at least it seems his intentions were not malicious. It was insensitive and crude. I would want to know that the guy who made the comments will not tolerate insensitivity in the work place.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-04-15T14:11:54-06:00

ID

118605

Comment

Those persons trying to change the meaning and use of the n-word have as good a chance of succeeding as finding a living dinosaur. The word is what it is. It has an ugly meaning, history and future that is irreplaceable, irrefutable,irremediable, irremovable, irreparable and unalterable. No amount of rapping, entertaining, word processing, scholarship, intellect, coolness, coldness, or down with the cause black folks or white folks - not even time itself - will likely change this meaning in my view. Nor will drooping clothes, catchy lyrics, fly haircuts, moving drum beats, bling bling, conventions, dope, liquor or courage be of any consequence once you call the wrong ______ a ______, (can I get a witness?)or use the n-word around the wrong people. Those persons engaging in such fantasy about the n-word, no matter their status or lot in life, should sign up for the armed services and go to Iraq so that at last they will get to face something that requires lucidity. Bush says it might require lucidity to fight and end a war, but it doesn't to start one. He, he,,,

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-15T15:31:03-06:00

ID

118609

Comment

In light of recent discussions on race, I must say that if we are to abolish the thinking and association of this word with negativity, then it should not be used by ANYONE. It should be used to describe an ignorant person. Not a black person, whether it's in a rap or peice of literature. In order to get a grasp on this thing, we are going to have to do things differently. I for one say this world coming and going. However, I see now that it is offensive to every single black man and woman who ever heard it while being beat to a bloody pulp. It is offensive whether it's being used by someone black to another black person or being used by someone of another background. The power this word has to spark flames is tremendous and it should not be as powerful as people are to prevent the burn. However, it is. So to keep white folks from the temptation of using it the "cool" way...black folks need to find another word to use when addressing our buddies. The confusion of whether it was meant in a good way or a bad way is only massaging the festering sore that is racism. It just needs to stop. No exceptions. Bottom line.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-15T16:19:33-06:00

ID

118616

Comment

If ever there was a word that deserved to eliminated from the American vocabulary it's that one.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2008-04-16T08:39:46-06:00

ID

118617

Comment

So to keep white folks from the temptation of using it the "cool" way...black folks need to find another word to use when addressing our buddies. The confusion of whether it was meant in a good way or a bad way is only massaging the festering sore that is racism. It just needs to stop. No exceptions. Bottom line. When I heard the N-word used more and more among black people in my age group in the '90s, I knew it would be a matter of time before white people would start using it thinking that it was okay because blacks used it, and then blacks would get mad at whites for using it. I'm surprised the confusion didn't start sooner. [color=blue]ETA: Where did my return go? I know I hit the Enter key.[/color]

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-04-16T08:54:24-06:00

ID

118627

Comment

Here's a frustrating perspective in response to Lacey that, unfortunately, is all-too-common attitude: But here's the thing. "My n*gger" isn't a racial slur. It is a common phrase used within black culture itself. Does the AT mean to suggest that some words are acceptable among blacks but not among whites? And does his suggestion have its roots within the black community - i.e. was it blacks who decided that whites aren't allowed to use the word "n*gger" while they are? And if so, how racist is that? I guess we should thank the rappers? (Ducking from the chair Kaze is about to throw at me.) The loose use of the word "racist" simply drives me crazy, folks. While we're all grousing about the n-word, the truth is that the bigger problem might be the disembowelment of the word "racist" to mean anything that people want it to mean. In a sense, that's more insidious.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-16T09:53:37-06:00

ID

118630

Comment

"...common phrase used in black culture itself." Who says this? Is it not more commonly used still in white culture or some parts of white culture? Who defines black culture or what is acceptable or embraced black culture - young folks, old folks, white folks, literary writers, sociologists, psychologist, historians, the press, musicians, entertainers or who in particilar. It may be commonly used in some parts of black culture but not all and certainly not most. Cosby would say the lower class uses it randomly, cavalierly and irresponsibly!

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-16T10:09:48-06:00

ID

118631

Comment

Ra...I mean, Walt, I think that this is another case of someone assuming that all black folks are alike.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-04-16T10:20:21-06:00

ID

118632

Comment

Whites can use the n-word at their own risk just as a crip can go into the bloods' territory at his or her own risk. I just don't want to see or hear a battered crip member breathing his last breath and asking why a blood shot him while traversing in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong hour and time. Whites shouldn't listen to blacks about whether the word is appropriate or acceptable. They can choose instead to personally use the word as frequently as desired and so often that its use is changed or brought into the main stream acceptable use. I happen to think personal harm and massive fallout will always precede the word becoming acceptable to any large extent. I agree that the word racist is often misused to descibe someone who certainly didn't mean to be racist or isn't racist at all. Intent and impact are quite different things or matters. Truly smart people will try to make impact and intent line up.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-16T10:24:20-06:00

ID

118633

Comment

I'm not Ra... I'm Walt. I do consider it a high compliment for anyone to think I'm that fine gentlemen whose writings and humor I cherish so much. His insight, knowledge, courage, instincts, humor, intellect and philosophy were truly something to behold and aspire to. I like and consider him one of my heroes. Thanks for the compliment, LW. I will tell him that you intimated that I reminded you of him. I'm overwhelmed by the compliment!

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-16T10:34:38-06:00

ID

118634

Comment

[chortle] Glad you're here, Ra, I mean Walt.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-16T10:35:43-06:00

ID

118645

Comment

Not long ago I was saying to myself, "Self, whatever happened to Ra...?" Well, now I know!

Author

Kacy

Date

2008-04-16T12:53:52-06:00

ID

118650

Comment

Again, I'm not Ray. I know Ray. He's a friend of mines. I served with Ray, and I tell you Walt is no Ray Carter. Ray got run a while back for falling on his sword for his alma mater. I won't say more on the matter and encourage others to do likewise. However, i've been informed that an inch of land on that campus was named after him for his courage under fire. I will tell him y'all missed him dearly and wishes for his return. He no doubt was a fan of many of you too.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-16T14:15:00-06:00

ID

118659

Comment

I agree w/ Queen. That word should just go away. I know that my kids know that it's a no-no. Maybe if black parents would cease it's use and discourage it w/ their kids, it WOULD go away. I wouldn't hold your breath.

Author

bill_jackson

Date

2008-04-16T18:39:44-06:00

ID

118662

Comment

Well when I was growning up if I said the N word my mom washed my mouth out with soap. This was back in the 60s so I don't know if moms do this anymore. Even now I cringe when I hear the word spoken and I gotta say when I hear black people using it I am astounded since it is such a divisive word instead of something unifying. I think its a word that should never be used in any sort of public forum since those of us who don't even want to think of it have to endure somebody's "shock" word of the day. Their trivial gain for others pain.

Author

GLewis

Date

2008-04-16T19:33:26-06:00

ID

118664

Comment

I honestly belive that unless it's being said to you by someone that it shouldnt matter who says it to the friends, if your black and your white buddy say "what up my ni--a" and it offends you just handle it on a case by case basis by telling them that it offends you and the word is offensive. but in my opinion if it offends you when someone white says it without any negative intentions then it should offend you the same way when someone black does it as well, I belive theres a double standard here for no apparent reason.

Author

clay e.

Date

2008-04-16T21:59:37-06:00

ID

118666

Comment

hence the [BAN]; Double standards suck.

Author

bill_jackson

Date

2008-04-16T22:41:47-06:00

ID

118667

Comment

I disagree with clay e. I am never willing to hear this word coming from anyone who isn't black. Honestly I am not offended by it because I know that there is a difference in pronunciation that makes the word offensive or not. However, we are at a place where we need to work towards resolution. We cant say it's okay for some white people to say it. We can no longer say that it's okay for black people to say it if they want. The reason being we are working towards EQUALITY. Meaning that all things must be fair and on even ground. We, as black people must be willing to compromise IF we are working towards this and aiming for harmony among all people. If we continue using this word it leads to all people not being treated the same. If we are trying to do away with blacks being treated different from whites, then this could serve as the first attempt at progress.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T08:02:57-06:00

ID

118670

Comment

I'm for a total ban of the word. I fight the temptation to occasionally use it when with my best friends. I don't like the word and am offendned and embarassed everytime I hear it. I even stopped using the word redneck for a similar reason. I don't like any of the racially offensive words. Not using them simply shows respect for others and the choice to operate from a higher ground, in my opinion.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T08:57:43-06:00

ID

118673

Comment

I agree with you Walt. I mean this is what separates us from animals. Having the sense to know better. We know that the word is controversial, why is it so hard to just not use it. It's not like it's the only word that can be used to address or describe. I think that for black people, including myself and my friends, have used it because it gives us an UP on whites. We dare them to say it just to offer us a reason to feel like we can and you can't. Which for the longest time, made perfect sense to me. However, I'm tired of fighting this sensless battle. It's like using b#!$h or other not so pleasant words to describe a woman. When if someone used that term to describe or to address your mother or signifant other it would be cause for a slapping. Same thing. If the meaning behind the word is a cause for confusion then it should be abolished. I think blacks need to start thinking. If we want to be treated fairly, we should treat people fairly. Now, if it's not important to keep things fair, then we should just start our own community like the people who had the polygomist colony. They couldn't deal with the world disagreeing with their ideas so they started their own little world. Didn't work out well for them, therefore, I'm inclined to believe it probabaly wouldn't work for us. So, the best thing to do is get along with each other and work it out. We got too many hang ups and the time has come to get over it. I'm not saying that we should loose our culture or not take pride in who we are and what we've been thru. NOt even saying that we should let up on those who don't see our goals clearly and understand our struggles. But I am saying that fairness is the only recourse we have at a fresh new society that embraces us all....our culture, our heritage and our struggles. Black people aren't the only ones who have struggled. We've got to learn to accept that. And stop making this claim that we are not equal. WE ARE and we need to make other races clear on that. We do that by first respecting ourselves and we must also respect everyone else.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T09:20:24-06:00

ID

118675

Comment

All, "Ben" has posted a longer response on his blog, after I quoted him above saying that the idea that blacks can use the n-word, but whites can't, is racist. Check it out, and give us your feedback here if you get a second. (And Ben, I'm not a "he"; I'm a chick. A white one, even though there this is a very mixed-race discussion, which may or may not be apparent. You are certainly quite confident about your race views, it seems, being that you call your site, "Race Relations: Telling the truth about racism." That's quite the promise! Good luck with it; we all have know how hard it can be to determine that "truth" and how much dialogue between races is required before you come close to it. Where do you live, by the way? If you're close to Jackson, maybe you should come on over for one of our upcoming race forums and join the dialogue.)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T09:46:24-06:00

ID

118676

Comment

And in direct response to him, as people here know, I believe many people on all sides of this discussion use the words "bigotry" and "racism" interchangeably in a way that negates the power of the word "racist." In Mr. Lacey's case, I have no indication that he was attempting to be racist, and in fact his history of work shows good work on behalf of immigrations and against racial profiling. The issue here is not whether he was being racist; it is whether the use of a "racial slur" in such a superficial way, and by a someone from the group that used the word in the first place to promote racism and even terrorism, is offensive and deserves response, or does it just get silence because a bunch of white guys don't see the big deal. As I always say, the best response to offensive speech is more speech (about the time someone starts defending the guy's free speech. No sh!t. That's not the issue. Your logic really falls down, though, when you tried in your original post to say that the belief that white people should not use the n-word because black people can is "racist." That is one of the more serious twistings of the meaning of racism I've ever seen. There is no systematic discrimination of the white race because people do not believe that we should re-appropriate a word that our forebearers used to belittle an entire race of people. And you know what, my life is just as sweet without my feeling comfortable calling my white buddies by a white-supremacist label. The bottom line is that it is not up to you or me to decide the kinds of labels that society over all deems offensive due to their historic role in our society. No one is saying the government should censor the word. What this conversation is about is what kind of country we-the-people want to live in, and whether or not we encourage each to feel empathy for our fellow human beings. I'm not offended at all that you don't agree, but it is important for you to know that your viewpoint is only one man's view. Many of the rest of us have different ideas, and we now live in a world where we are growing more and more comfortable about challenging the dominant cultural views in our country and having honest conversations that help us make those decisions before we start telling the world what they oughta think. For too long, we've all lived under a cloud of following along with what white people overall, and men in particular, are comfortable with on race issues (which is usually not discussing them, or telling the rest of us what we can say), and many people are stepping out from under that cloud now because it is keeping mired in a certain place where perceived white comfort trumps everything else. Many of us are now rejecting that, here in Mississippi and beyond. And that feels great. - Donna Ladd

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T09:58:46-06:00

ID

118679

Comment

I feel the same way about the word as I do the confederate flag- everyone has the right to use the word, just as everyone has the right to fly the flag. That having been said, why would anyone want to do either when they know that it will hurt someone else's feelings? Why be mean when there is no reason for it other than to prove a point that nobody can really argue with anyway? What ever happened to simply being nice?

Author

Rico

Date

2008-04-17T10:08:50-06:00

ID

118680

Comment

I just can't see how it can be deemed a remedy to inequality to say that what's good for us, is not good for you. I think that what this gentleman is suggesting continues to lead us towards segregation. Which still contributes to racism. I guess maybe I'm thinking along the lines of equality and some others are thinking still along the lines of why blacks should be superior (in certain aspects). I don't think white is better than black by far. And I certainly don't think that black is better than white. I think blacks are probably stronger in a sense because we've had to struggle with this type of thing in a much larger regard than other races. However, if Christians believe that one God created us all, then please, by all means, explain to me how separation and exceptions can be valid in any facet. Whether it's the use of a six letter word, racial profiling or anything else. I don't think ANYONE is better than I am. I dont care if you're black or white or indian. I understand the anger of blacks feeling like whites are just trying to control what we do, what we say, and thus, continuing to portray that this is their world and we are just lucky to be here. However, that just can not be our focus or we will destroy our chance at rising above this. We've got to be willing to surrender that anger and frustration in an effort to progress.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T10:15:51-06:00

ID

118681

Comment

The rebel flag celebrates segregation and discrimination. It should be abolished as the n word should. It displays that we are still in the mind state that we were during the 60's and it's a shame that Mississippi tolerates these types of things.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T10:17:36-06:00

ID

118683

Comment

Why be mean when there is no reason for it other than to prove a point that nobody can really argue with anyway? What ever happened to simply being nice? Rico, I so agree. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. As a civil libertarian, I will fight for your right to hang a Confederate flag in your garage, even if I pity you for thinking it's a good idea. What in hell is that trying to prove? That we haven't changed? Thanks a lot. And, Queen, you are speaking so much truth that it makes me dizzy. Want to write a column for the JFP? I'll pay you in pennies, but still. The offer is open to others as well. I'm soliciating new opinion columns. No hate, sensationalism, and the facts stated must be verifiable. Different viewpoints welcome, but no blasting of whole groups, from the left or the right.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T10:48:42-06:00

ID

118685

Comment

It may be that fewer African Americans would use the term "my n*****" as a term of affection if they knew the origins. I recall reading a study that stated that it originated among wealthy delta plantation owners who, when certain favored, highly productive plantation workers would get in trouble and get locked up in jail, they would just use their clout and go down to the jail and tell the sheriff, "That's MY n*****" and they would be released. We don't know our history so we don't even know why we are doing and saying some of the things that have been passed down to us.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-04-17T10:55:46-06:00

ID

118686

Comment

I talked to a friend Sunday who said we(America)shouldn't pull out the war in Iraq no matter what because things would get worse such as gas going up even higher. I then said would you want yourself or your sons to fight in that war and he quickly said no way. He went on to state many other hard pronouncements/judgements but backstracted each time I place him or his love ones as victims or potential victims. What a hypocrite and situational fool. Many of us are that way no matter how much we front or argue to the contrary. Our goal should be to not be one of these people because everyone has a situation whether they admit it or not. This same friend was told as we pledged a fraternity, by fraternity leaders or big brothers to never pick anyone over your line brothers (pledgees) as we pledged. Two weeks later, this same friend and pledgee, while trying to brown-nose with the leaders of the fraternity (big brothers, not line brothers or pledgees), refuses to offer any of his food to his hungry line brothers and instead took all of his food to a big brother and offered that big brother (not line brothers) any portion of the food he wanted. That wise big brother realizing that particilar pledgee was stupid, untrustworthy and deceitful, took all of that pledgee food and made the pledgee eat raw onions as that big brother and other big brothers ate all of his cake and other foods. That pledgee later ran back crying to his little brother (which I was one of) and told us what the big brothers had done to him. We laughed at first and wanted to whip his ass as our stomachs growled at the mention of food. However we soon showed empathy and brotherly love toward a person who didn't show it to us. That act of kindness won that stupid pledgee's loyalty, respect and love at least for our college years. The n-word may be just a word to that particular author but it's not to blacks generally or most people. Perhaps the author will learn some day that he speaks for only a few and probably just one. Otherwise, I totally agree with Donna's comments of 10:58.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T11:09:16-06:00

ID

118687

Comment

My thought Whitley, is that indeed we understand that the word is meant as a term to express affection. My point is, if we don't want white people to use it for the same purpose because we can't distinguish whether it is meant to be affectionate or not, then it should just not be used. Why give such power to a word? It's so simple and plain to me. It hurts people. It derived from a troubled, horrible time in the history of black people, it controversal, it's painful, it's negative....why are we giving in to this WORD. If you want to say what up to yo boy around the corner, how about we just say....hey, what up? Or what up dude, or man, or whatever. FELLA. I don't care what. Point is...way to much confusion can be attached to it's use and thus it is easier to not use it than it is to try and claim it for black people and dare whites to use it. And Donna, I'd love to write a column as long as this offer isn't because we're on the same page on this issue....and comes more along the lines of having a voice and some truth to share!!! :-) Would absolutely love to!

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T11:23:08-06:00

ID

118688

Comment

I agree with Queen too and expected her to take a different view considering her past views about hip-hop and the b-word.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T11:30:04-06:00

ID

118690

Comment

I think this one is difficult, in part because I think that when confronted with a dominant society that hates you, one good immediate survival strategy is to appropriate tools of hate and resignify them. Like when slaves used Christian hymns encouraging them to toil ceaselessly and wait for their heavenly reward, and used them in code to signify messages about the underground railroad. Or when lesbians call each other "dyke" and laugh they take the sting off the word, they take the sting of the sound off the word. I believe that. Yet, as a longer term solution code switching isn't going to get rid of the problem.

Author

Izzy

Date

2008-04-17T11:36:31-06:00

ID

118692

Comment

The problem, as I see it, is that most blacks now living can never get with the n-word no matter the spelling or so-called appropriation of it. Shouldn't time and effort be better spent on something else. Calling a person a dyke will always be offensive to me and I bet so-called dykes will be offended when the wrong person calls them one. To accept the n-word as a new word with a new meaning or simply a word with no harmful substance or meaning will require everyone to ignore history. Black folks would have to be totally dumb and stupid to ever totally ignore history as many time as history has repeated itself in our lives. Even a casual knowledge of history makes this clear. Before the Sixties hardly any of us blacks could get beyond race no matter how rich, intellegent, ingenious, educated, inventive, polished, skillful at Toming or how many white friends we thought we had, etc. You could never have enough of anything. The system simply wouldn't allow it or give in to us, and the South was as responsible as anyone for keeping racism alive and at the top of the political, social, economic and bargaining agenda. This is undeniable.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T11:57:57-06:00

ID

118693

Comment

I forgot to add, some things haven't changed. What role is the South still or now playing?

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T12:01:19-06:00

ID

118695

Comment

What role is the South still or now playing?

Sacrifical Goat and Whipping Boy of the Liberal Elite, in my view. ;)

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-04-17T12:27:14-06:00

ID

118696

Comment

And Mississippi is in a class all by itself of demonstrating the stereotypical racial inharmonies, Walt. By the way, you are so right, my ideas about the use of the b word has changed as well. The reason for my vocality in regards to that word and the use of the n word in the past came from my ignorance and inability to see the entire picture. Being too selfish to accept other opinions. I don't like generalizations. But I was doing a whole hell of a lot of generalizing then. I was one who felt that I was being directed or instructed on how I should feel about MY culture, my attitude. Which was UNACCEPTABLE to me. Now, though, I am clearer and the whole picture is easier for me to see. Thanks for pointing that out. Because I was very vocal about that then, and I plan to be just as vocal about my new found opinion.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T12:43:46-06:00

ID

118697

Comment

Ironghost how did we (the south) get to be a goat and whipping boy of anyone? Maybe if the working class and conservatives more readily told the truth about the past, the liberal elites wouldn't have anything negative to add about the south. Did we not earn all or some of the staus given us or was it all wrongly given to us? I happen to know that no one honestly and knowlegeably dispute what I said about the south above. I will add though for you that at times the whole country joined in complicity and leadership with the south in the effort to maintain the status quo. I will further add that the south has grown significantly from its horrible past and that the north, east and west aren't blameless or quiltless either for the dark past of black Americans. I'm yet to understand how the undisputed truth about the south can so easily offend so many southerners. There must be something bad about shining the light.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T13:12:45-06:00

ID

118698

Comment

I see you missed the humor part of my previous comment. I really need a list of who here doesn't have a sense of humor anymore. You know, I'd love to argue this whole thing, but I don't honestly have the energy anymore. We've all yelled at each other, and been yelled at for so many years about being so evil, so unredeemable, so vile that we're worthless to the rest of the country... Then people wonder why we can't have a "honest and open" dialog. I think some people are ready to forget the past and survive the present and hope the future is better.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2008-04-17T13:24:40-06:00

ID

118700

Comment

Queen, your comments here are powerful. I admire your honesty in confessing that your old views on these issues were wrong. Many people would not have done that. But now only did you do it, you're now trying to help others find their way and see the light too. That is priceless. God love you!

Author

Kacy

Date

2008-04-17T13:28:55-06:00

ID

118701

Comment

You mean the "liberal elite" thing? Is that humor? Iron, who has yelled at you about being evil, unredeemable and vile? You seem to always react the same way. I'm so sorry to see that. Again, I hate it when the rest of the world uses Mississippi to make themselves look better, too. But we also have to take responsibility for how we contribute to that -- like by keeping the Confederate emblem in the state flag, or doing so little to deal with the severe problems of the state, and repeatedly electing people who don't care. If we want the world reflecting something better at us, let's not keep our greatness such a secret; let's send it out there and others that we are not who they think we are based on our history and our current choices. Let's bomerang a different message, and blaming the "liberal elite" for noticing things we can change is not sending that message–regardless of whatever else we find annoying about how we're covered or considered. Truth is truth, regardless of what it's tucked inside. It's up to us. And you say "forget the past." All of it, or just the parts they make you and others uncomfortable? Do you want your kids to skip their history classes? I don't get it.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T13:28:58-06:00

ID

118702

Comment

One other thing Ironghost, doesn't your comment lends itself to that victimization concept that conservatives claim is styming or preventing the growth of black Americans, and that whites generally would never engage in. As to the comment about slaves using Christain hymnals that allowed them to toil ceaselessly for free. While this is a historical fact, can you imagine how demoralizing and devastating it was to sing about a white man coming from heaven to save you who never appeared no matter how hard or long you worked, and to see your great-grandmother then grandmother and then mother and yourself die without this great man from the sky ever showing up to deliver you or your kind. This is a testament to the surreal powers of our ancestors to fool themselves into surviving whatever was thrown at them. I suppose they had to do this considering they worked from dusk to dawn then had to go home and feed master's hogs, cows and other animals in the dark then try to fix something to eat for themselves and care for their own families. Many were lucky if they got 4 hours of rest and sleep. Many worked all day Saturday and most worked a half day on Saturday. Slavery was terrible. Let's not be fooled by it at all. I know Laurel meant no harm by the comment.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T13:35:44-06:00

ID

118703

Comment

I wasn't saying, or at least wasn't intending to say, that slavery wasn't terrible. I wasn't criticizing slaves in any way. What I meant was, slaves used whatever was in their power. And one way they did this was by using spiritual hymn texts and subverting the meaning so that they had an underlying, subversive, empowering message. I'm seeing strength in this re-coding or "signifying." I'm not certain that using the word "dyke" is disempowering to all lesbians. I'm really not certain about that at all. Maybe in an ideal world where no one called them that, it wouldn't be. But if they are called that day in and day out at work or at school why shouldn't they redirect the focus, turn it into a joke or a method of subverting that word's power?

Author

Izzy

Date

2008-04-17T13:47:10-06:00

ID

118704

Comment

I understand Laurel. I know you didn't imply or suggest that. That comment was for some others I know who haven't commented on this thread but do read it, and do think slavery was humane. Some have told me that off this thread.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T13:57:49-06:00

ID

118705

Comment

Kacy, as I've mentioned to some other people here, I am convinced that the only way to rectify this whole thing is through healing. What better way to heal than to share experiences? i'm not perfect. And I'm sure some of my black brothers and sisters will find some way to say I'm selling out by sharing these views here. However, I can't be deterred by them. For, I feel, way deep down in my soul that this is not the way the world was meant to be. Not the way we were intended to relate to each other. We can't deny what has happened to us in the past (and not so distant pass). White people can't deny that their ancestors, whether they agree with them or not, felt that they were superior to those of us born in or coming from AFRICA. It's a fact. White people need to embrace that as uncomfortable and embarassing as it may be. But blacks need to accept that we have overcome alot and we did that by coming together. We need to do the same thing today. The only difference is that now those marches won't be as dark as they were years back. The marches today will and need to be filled with people with all color faces. And I can't see why we can't do that. We need to learn to accept what the past has done to our future and accept that if WE DO NOT CHANGE it this responsibility will fall on our children. I personally have to do some tune up work on my son because mommy has inadvertently sent some wrong messages to him. I'm willing to do that. And we all must be so willing. Thank you all for allowing me the opportunity to be brutally honest, for in honesty is truth. I refuse to live where truth does not reign - supreme!!

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T14:36:52-06:00

ID

118706

Comment

Ironghost, may I have a moment to speak to you directly. I know on this board when people are struck by a comment it seems like everyone gets on to you. I understand that. But we can't see your face or hear your tone here. We can only read your words. This is difficult especially when most of us dont know each other personally. But it would help to get your point across if you didn't "seem" so defensive. It comes across as if you are angry and frustrated, instead of sharing your opinion. So, in turn people return in defense. But I really hope that you can stay and offer your opinion, whatever it is. We may not all agree, but I think you can see that this discussion is necessary and the rest of us have proven to be dedicated to having it, by any means necessary. I appreciate your humor. It's just hard to tell that you're being funny when we can't see you or hear you. So keep that in mind and lets keep chopp'n it up!!!

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T14:41:03-06:00

ID

118707

Comment

I'm staying out of this one but, I asked my wife and she says I'm not nearly as bad in person as I am on the internet.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-17T15:19:21-06:00

ID

118708

Comment

As Ray carter has and would say again if available, something is to be said for Ironghost continuing to get into these discussion. It seems to me that he's saying I didn't do anything therefore I don't want to be blamed or involved in the discussion. Yet he persistently read these race threads even if he doesn't comment. He seems to forget that no one is saying he personally did anything. It further seems to me that he doesn't like to talk about race because he feels he will always wind up on the short end of the stick. This isn't a true conclusion though unless he has allowed himself to be blamed for unknown and known ancestors. In other words, has allowed himself to become a victim of the south or the southern way of life. In my opinion, the quiltless ought to refuse to feel blame and even unnecessary shame, fear and hurt for the actions others caused. Empathy, sorrow and appropriate hurt toward others for pain can be felt and distinguished from blame. I also wonder if Ironghost hasn't suffered some hurt and abuse (maybe even physical) from some black folks who blamed him for things he didn't do. I have personally seen some black people pick on innocent white people just to see some white people suffer too just as black folks had suffered. My innate makeup and intellect wouldn't ever let me engage in any of this. I even allowed a little white boy to grab a bat from my hands in batting practice one time in high school because he flet all the black males were teaming up and keeping the bats from the 2 or 3 white boys on the team. I certainly wasn't aware of any teaming up. This incident haunted me for probably 20 years or so. I even thought about finding him and attacking him for years afterward to assuage my worry that I handled the matter wrongly. I didn't fight at the moment because instinctively I knew it was wrong to fight over a bat with a teammate and because I saw all the unexplained anger and hurt on his face. Clearly, he was convinced he had been wronged. Looking back, I probably was the only black person on the team who wouldn't have fought instantly. I have to believe I'm justified before fighting. Of course another conclusion can be that Ironghost hasn't reconciled inwardly or otherwise the issue of race and/or racism.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T15:24:38-06:00

ID

118710

Comment

Well Walt, I'm not going to analyze him, it works best if he analyzes himself. That way it means more.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T15:32:13-06:00

ID

118711

Comment

Another conclusion could be that some people haven't and can't reconcile and discuss the issue of race, white supremacy and racism in America. I've had people to tell me that white people can't discuss race and racism with coolness, empathy, shame, knowledge, truth, honesty, understanding, beauty and boldness. For those who believe that lie I point them to Donna Ladd as exhibit 1!

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T15:33:52-06:00

ID

118713

Comment

Walt-from what I have read and looking the N-word up in an etymology dictionary, the orgins of the word came from Europe and not the Delta. It's was just another form of the Spanish word-negro, the French word-negre, and the Latin word- niger. Their original meaning was the color black. In Colonial U.S. the British settlers used it to refer to all people with dark skin not just people from Africa. It wasn't used as racist term for former slaves in the South or the world until after the Civil War. Still, it's not a word people should use, but it's origins pre-date the plantations in the Delta by a couple hundred years.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-04-17T15:35:24-06:00

ID

118714

Comment

Thanks Bubba I read something similar somewhere. Of course, I heard it in Louisville and Noxapater first (Winston County) and later Ridgeland and Madison (Madison County). The word doesn't make me necessarily angry anymore, I just don't like the word.

Author

Walt

Date

2008-04-17T15:43:18-06:00

ID

118716

Comment

Reminds me of the innocent origins of the swastika. I think it's safe to say that n-word really gained its power on the brutal plantations of the Delta as the swastika did flying over the headquarters of the Third Reich.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T16:00:58-06:00

ID

118717

Comment

The swastika was also used by an U.S. National Guard unit in the 1920's and early 1930's as the unit symbol, until they realize that was not such a good idea. Just noticed the Wiki article says this too, so much for my trivia of the day.

Author

BubbaT

Date

2008-04-17T16:08:23-06:00

ID

118718

Comment

Fact is, that where ever the word originated, it took on a totally different meaning in America, in the South, in Mississippi and in the DELTA. And most people these days have no idea that it use to mean dark colored. All they know is that it is a word that SOME white people use to degrade, humiliate, and control black people.

Author

Queen601

Date

2008-04-17T16:23:28-06:00

ID

118719

Comment

Wacky. But at least the government mothballed that co-opted symbol of racism. I've actually heard people try to justify Mississippi keeping the Confederate emblem in the state flag by saying that, way back, it didn't stand for race hatred and the real goals of the Civil War. As if it matters what it originally meant. Such a convenient embrace of distant history is remarkable coming from people who tell us to forget the past, or the part they don't dig.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T16:25:33-06:00

ID

118720

Comment

Agreed, Queen.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-17T16:26:34-06:00

ID

118740

Comment

Queen, I feel you. I wasn't trying to justify the use of the "that's my n*****" phrase as a term of affection; I intended to point out it's negative origins as it was originally coined opressive plan.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2008-04-18T11:12:44-06:00

ID

118758

Comment

My son did a school report last year where he learned that for American slave owners, the n-word was a mispronunciation of the country of origin that was listed on the slave papers from Africa. Most African slaves were obtained from many different regions in Africa, but were primarily taken to the country of Niger (now Nigeria) to be placed on the ships and taken to America. Many of the slave owners had no understanding of world geography, and used that word to describe anyone that was "from Niger", similar to how people from America were called Americans. Of course, I'm sure it was used in a derogatory manner from the get-go. I remember having to explain to my 12 year old the hateful history of that word. He had never heard it before, and was completely confused over why anyone would even consider using it today, in any context.

Author

slugbug

Date

2008-04-20T18:03:45-06:00

ID

118759

Comment

He did seem to think it was somewhat understandable if "brown people used it, but only with each other, and never in an ugly way" :) Slugbug, maybe your son should go on tour and explain this to white-men-wanting-to-be-street around the country.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-20T18:07:01-06:00

ID

118761

Comment

"the country of Niger (now Nigeria)" -slugbug Correct me if I'm wrong but Niger and Nigeria are two different countries in west Africa. Niger is a separate republic that shares borders with Nigeria and Benin.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-20T20:07:01-06:00

ID

118763

Comment

maybe the tot shouldn't lecture on that part just yet. ;-) More on Niger. His book report on the origin of the n-word might need factchecking as well. It looks like it comes from the Latin/Spanish/French word for black and has pretty much always been a perjorative. Read more here. When I read slugbug's post, I wondered about the origin claim, but didn't look it up to now. Thanks, will, for the reminder. Oh, and I thought our use of the name "Ross Barnett Reservoir" was bad. Wait 'til you see some of the geographic uses of the n-word around the country talked about on the Wikipedia page. Shudder.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-20T20:11:43-06:00

ID

118765

Comment

This is a funny sentence on the Wikpedia entry: In the United States, the word n*gger was not always considered derogatory, but was instead used by many as merely denotative of black skin, as it was in other parts of the English-speaking world. Love that passive: "was not always considered derogatory" by whom? The dominant culture who could read and write the history books at the time? Because, you know, there would have been so many non-derogatory reasons to call people out by their blackness at that point. It's so funny how so much language reflects the views and perceptions of the dominant (white) culture when you start paying attention. That really goes back to the heart of this thread: Is it acceptable for a white man to adopt a racial slur to use as a "street" term of endearment for his white buddy? The answer has seemed to be that it's OK if other white people think it is. It hasn't seemed to matter to those who defend the practice what the victims of the slur think. That's classic dominant-culture thinking, and we will not get anywhere on all this until people are willing to step outside their socialized comfort box and consider what others might think. Or even consider why it might matter what other people think. This country has lived under a certain white-male dominant thinking for a long time. It makes sense that it would take a while to shake loose, but I do wish we'd see more progress from more of those guys. It really must get old to labor under those kind of expectations. I mean look at all the copying of black culture. Does it make sense to emulate and profit off of black culture if you don't care what black people think about your use of language that has long denigratd them? Why can't we rattle this cage harder? White men (and women), we've got to work a bit harder at this. Be willing to be uncomfortable and hear stuff you've been told all your life you shouldn't have to hear. Just thinking out loud. And, admittedly, raving a bit. That Wikipedia page got my blood pumping, I guess. I mean, people actually had to fight to change "Dead N*gger Creek" to "Dead Negro Creek"? Who are the people who would resist such a thing? It hurts my head (and my heart) to consider it. Of course, learning that slave owners "hobbled" their slaves so they couldn't run, or the multitude of other cruelties starting with ownership itself, didn't exactly increase my faith in humanity. I guess not that many generations have passed, yet. But, good God. People, can we once and for all get that damned Confederate emblem out of our state flag!?! It is a symbol of the worst of humanity and the fact that people would even consider keeping it on a flagpole instead of in a museum sends such a horrendous message. Please.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2008-04-20T20:37:23-06:00

ID

118766

Comment

At the risk of appearing to be inflammatory, it being Passover, and given my limited knowledge, the Spanish Inquisition began in 1483 when pope something or other appointed Torquemada as Grand Inquisitor, and ordered him to kick out all the Jews and Muslims from Spain. A bunch of the Spanish Jews fled to Holland where they founded the Dutch West Indies Company. They financed Christopher Columbus's voyage to the good ole USA where he captured a large number of Indians and sold them as slaves in Spain. This was the beginning of the slave trade in the Americas and the Spanish origin of the eventual use of Spanish word "negro." As an aside, and although I am a multiracial person, the Spanish Jewish diaspora ranged as far as my native Ireland and Jews were there in large numbers for 500 years. The first President of the Republic of Ireland was Eamon deValera whose father's ancestry was Spanish Jew. I think there was about 58,000 Spanish Jews in Ireland until about a decade ago. So, that's my understanding of where the "N" word comes from, which is the events following the Spanish Inquisition.

Author

willdufauve

Date

2008-04-20T20:53:14-06:00

ID

118775

Comment

Nigeria became a named country during the British occupation in the late 1800's. The land was known as Niger during the slave trade days. Niger covered a much larger land area then than it does today.

Author

slugbug

Date

2008-04-21T07:54:53-06:00

ID

118797

Comment

http://www.notarapper.com/ Ya'll check out what this hip hop poet is saying about bad language in rap - his homepage has a track on it talking about language, hip hop, theory & change - a bold critique.

Author

Izzy

Date

2008-04-21T13:44:42-06:00

ID

118799

Comment

Izzy, I've heard of him through a YouTube clip that pikersam posted a while back. The song had lyrics such as "Read a book, read a book, read a MF-in' book" and so forth. It was like a Schoolhouse Rock parody.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2008-04-21T14:30:39-06:00