Ellington

The senate annouced yesterday that they will be asking several so-called "Mega-churches" to come before them and answer some questions about their financial practices. On CNN yesterday, several pastors of those churches were asked to respond, but Atlanta's Creflo Dollar was the only one to come forth and give any comments. Dollar, the owner of TWO. not one, but TWO Rolls Royces and a sprawling mansion says in so many words that nowhere in the bible does it say that you should not be prosperous. What do yo think of these "mega-churches"? and the flashy pastors that run them? do you even agree with "state" interfering with "church" business. What are your thoughts?

Previous Comments

ID

115604

Comment

Im gonna wait to see what some of you JFP faithfuls have to say but Ill start by giving the first part of my opinion. To me, if a church has more than 2-300 members its kind of akin to being in a college classroom at one of the major universities where you're in a lecture room with 1-200 other students. Its assembly-line religion. Im from the era of the smaller, more close knit churches. It seemed that your soul got a liiiitle more attention in those settings. But can't knock the hustle lol

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-11-08T12:25:33-06:00

ID

115605

Comment

You know, it's not just fabulously wealthy Christians who confuse me. It's the upper middle class Christians who drive SUVs and live in comfortable homes. Do they really believe that God or Jesus, if given the choice, would put a new deck on their house, rather than providing food and vaccines for hundreds of poor Africans? If God loves all his children equally, surely he would damn any child who feasts (or even eats his fill) while his brother starves. Contrary to what Creflo Dollar suggests, it seems to me that Christianity and prosperity are fundamentally incompatible.

Author

laughter

Date

2007-11-08T13:18:26-06:00

ID

115606

Comment

Kaze, like you I prefer the small churches. Government should not interfere with churches --- as long as they follow the rules of non-profit organizations. When they begin operating more like for-profit enterprises, then I don't knock the hustle, but then the hustle should be taxed. It's not Creflo's fault that his name is "Dollar". I don't think prosperity is incompatible with Christianity, but I do believe that a preoccupation with prosperity to the exclusion of the less fortunate is incompatible with Christianity.

Author

FreeClif

Date

2007-11-08T14:32:16-06:00

ID

115607

Comment

Whit got to it first, dangit. It's the love of money that's the root of all evil, not money. If Dollar's sporting a pair of Rolls Royces and all that, he'd better be funding a small yet poor nation, curing cancer, or something. Otherwise I think he's got issues...

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-11-08T14:36:07-06:00

ID

115608

Comment

The government is actually looking to see if they are in violation of any tax laws. There are certain laws that guide/govern not-for-profit organizations. You have to be careful with your spending and you can't exceed certain brackets of income being a non-profit. The question is: Did these mega preachers use tithes and offerings from their congregants- a non-profit to provide themselves with lavish living? So for Joyce Myeres to spend $32,000 on a toliet is questionable. For Creflo Dollar to give one million to Kenneth Copeland is questionable. For some of them to have private jets is questionable. The list goes on and on.... I think God wants all of his people to prosper, but he also wants us to follow the law.

Author

blkokc

Date

2007-11-08T15:19:31-06:00

ID

115609

Comment

oh and I should add....the real question is should they be tax exempt?

Author

blkokc

Date

2007-11-08T15:20:39-06:00

ID

115610

Comment

Law talking Guy, I agree totally. I've been a member of a church who couldn't pay the light bill while Revern Must Have Plenty drove a new cadillac and wore new suits at the church's expense. I've seen more gold and diamond worn by Revern Gold and Revern Diamond than pimps. I still don't know why preachers like suits, fine cars, shoes and other luxuries as much as questionable characters. Lest they become preachers for this reason. I belong to a very large church, a mega-church. I go to church to intermingle with others, learn and study the bible, and to live and lead a better life. At this point, I refuse to look to the minister or anyone else as my source of faith, provison, guide or example, but I'm happy when I find a good example in or out of the church. We all need role models at some point. Preachers are often mere men wrestling with greater temptations and failures than most parishners or members. I really don't mind the churches becoming massive or the preacher living good as long as the bulk of the money and resources go to helping the poor and needed people. I have given up on a preacher willing to be poor or to live a humble life or existence. They don't seem to like that aspect of Jesus. One preacher told me I haven't seen a party until I've seen a "preachers party" with all the drinking and so on. This repulsed me. I also expect Revern Temptation to live according to the bible he teaches from, and to keep his hands off Sister Been A While, Sister Easy and Sister Pretty Legs and All. I know the last one is hard to resist, but if the preacher can't do that as a married man and preacher then he's not ready to be a preacher, in my humble opinion. Sho Nuff and that's the double truth.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-08T15:28:29-06:00

ID

115611

Comment

Now I have to agree with blk...God DOES want us to prosper, but do it following the LAW. I have no problem consequently with any of these pastors enjoying the finer things as long as there are none among them who openly suffer or struggle. That would be totally wrong. and we DO have preachers who do that(flaunting while not sharing). I TOTALLY disagree with LTG's premise that Christianity and prosperity are incompatible. Why must they be? It is something that has been brought up a several conferences I have attended since I got a position within the national hip-hop congress. The phrase "glorified poverty" came up. which basically is the premise that to be an activist, community leader, counselor, etc..you pretty much have been told that you must be poor to be effective. that you have to financially be amongst the people you are trying to help. BALDERDASH! I stood with the new group of hiphop activists that felt like you dont have to be poor or struggling to make a change. One has nothing to do with the other in my opinion. First thing, before you can honestly and effectively help others you must help yourself. Secondly, in this day and age most folks wouldnt dare take advice or counseling from someone whos in the same boat with them. As I heard one artist say at a MAP mtg once. "How can you advise me when you don't have anymore(or less) than I have. It doesnt make it right, but folks like to see a successful person and will heed his words better.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-11-08T15:32:17-06:00

ID

115612

Comment

I think it's funny that the Senate wants to interrogate churches for their money and spending... Shouldn't the Senate be looking more into what THEY are spending?

Author

LawClerk

Date

2007-11-08T15:35:25-06:00

ID

115613

Comment

Where I have the problem is where the Church has been grossly neglect in its duties to its surrounding community. When the neighborhood that your building rests in is in horrible decay yet your pastor and chior is adorned in the finest threads THEN I have an issue, You expect your congregation to pay tithes but the hoods where you dwell expect you to pay tithes as well. You know the adage Ray, Pimps and Preachers are kin. they both dress gaudy, drive big hogs, and use the gift of gab to get folks to do nice things for them and have women fawn over them. One just has women sell their bodies to get him, the other has women bake cakes and pies to get him his. Again, I dont knock the hustle because everyone has to eat and everyone deserves to be comfortable(not $26,000 toilet seat comfortable, but comfortable) Just dont piss on my leg and tell me its raining.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-11-08T15:38:28-06:00

ID

115614

Comment

Kaze, preaching is a hussle/hustle? I thought those dudes were called by the LAWD?!

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-08T15:46:30-06:00

ID

115615

Comment

Figuratively Ray figuratively LOL. SOME of them (and I stress some) ARE actually called by the Lord. some of them are called by the money. Just as in rap music, some folks have realized its money in preaching. Legal money.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-11-08T15:50:26-06:00

ID

115616

Comment

Kamikaze -- I grant that you have a right to ensure a roof over your head and food to eat. Beyond that, the moral question, I think, becomes very simple: You have a hundred dollars. You can either spend it on a luxury for yourself, or you can spend it on a necessity for poor people. If you spend it on a luxury, your quality of life will be slightly improved for a short time. If you spend it helping poor people --let's again say Africans who need vaccines and clean water-- several children who would otherwise die will live. Let's stipulate that a "luxury" is anything beyond what is necessary for survival and a very basic level of physical health and comfort. Let's further stipulate that genuine, good faith efforts to improve yourself in the service of others (like buying a decent suit or taking a correspondence course to help you earn more money to give to the poor) are forms of charity and not luxuries. Finally, let's stipulate the obvious: there are more starving, diseased kids in the third world than could be cared for by all the money you will ever earn times 100. The question is simple: Beyond necessities, how can a Christian ever justify keeping a single dollar for himself, when that same dollar could keep a child from dying? Do you even entertain the possibility that Jesus would do this? (By the way, I agree that, as a practical matter, community activists shouldn't be required to become economic martyrs. But that's a practical, secular question of what rule to establish for others. It's fundamentally different from the internal, spiritual choice of what to do with your own time and money. The former takes into consideration economic incentives and the practical reality of selfishness. The latter is solely between you and God, who asks more of us.)

Author

laughter

Date

2007-11-08T16:06:55-06:00

ID

115617

Comment

I love my megachurch :P I think our pastor is a very humble man. He's not driving an escalade or wearing expensive suits; however, our church is huge. So is the congregation. It's grown since he has been there. I'm interested in what comes up, but I still don't fault my congregation for being large. My soul is not lacking due to size.

Author

emilyb

Date

2007-11-08T16:08:55-06:00

ID

115618

Comment

I forgot to say I'm not opposed to churches being investigated for stealing, mis-appropriating, or misusing the members' money. I once had some deacons on one occasion to sue Revern Rock the House for mismanaging the churches money. We had a judge who was raised in church and knew the bible well. Revern Rock the House tried to woo the judge with his biblical brillance, but he kept accidentally quoting verses and scriptures that didn't exist or were found elsewhere. Judge Know the Bible eventually told Revern Rock the House he needed to study the bible more and to leave her courtroom.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-08T16:10:05-06:00

ID

115619

Comment

I'm a preacher. I'm a female. I don't wear flashy clothes and I don't make lots of money. Surprise! I get so tired of the preacher generilizations. I tend to think that many people have been exposed to only one kind of denomination or maybe one type of preacher but I'd ask everyone to go to seminary-a real seminary that doesn't rubber stamp people. I'm talking about the AU Center in Atlanta or SMU in Dallas where people have to work hard, are usually middle of the road Protestant and are going to be in debt because of student loans for the rest of their lives to get that Master of Divinity. I don't fault people who don't got to school or don't belong to a denomination but there's something to be said for mentorship and education-even if it's not in a school Many of the mega churches that are under scrutiny don't have any governing body. They are just footloose and fancy free. That's always going to create problem because you really don't have anyone to keep you in check.

Author

msgrits

Date

2007-11-08T16:11:02-06:00

ID

115620

Comment

msgrits, I hope I haven't said anything too crazy. As Ironghost oftens says I'm the mascot or a mere comedian. I love the preacher I have now. He has a LS430 same color as mines and wears beatiful suits, but he preaches the word and stays out of mess. He went off to seminary school too, but I don't think that means seminary graduates are any better preachers or more helpful or Godly than those who don't go, as long as the bible or whatever book is learned and taught without fear.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-08T16:19:42-06:00

ID

115621

Comment

We also have many female preachers at my church. A very good thing which many churches can't handle.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-08T16:21:43-06:00

ID

115622

Comment

I just found this web site. Pretty interesting. http://www.rickross.com/reference/meyer/meyer19.html

Author

JMK

Date

2007-11-08T17:05:20-06:00

ID

115623

Comment

How did the big three not make that list JMK? Billy Graham and Pat Robertson are still kicking it to the bank everyday! I guess Billy is not technically on TV anymore?

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-11-08T18:12:55-06:00

ID

115624

Comment

I belong to a church where expansion is going on and there is a constant tear between enlarging facilities and giving more to ministries in the poor areas of Jackson, soup kitchens, other nations and the like. I enjoy the debate because it is framed in my church (St. James) we can do a lot so... and there is arguments because we are so blessed. I was offended when I went with a friend and another "recruit" to a mega church. Not to name names but it has a walk way over state street. We got the tour. The assistant pastor was raving about the gym, rock wall, and plasma TV's. When my friend asked "Shouldn't this have feed a hungry family for a month", he was asked to leave. Christian... NO. I have no problem with people being prosperous, but it should be remembered Jesus had a clear stance on helping the poor and lesser and not extorting money in his name AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-11-09T00:50:57-06:00

ID

115625

Comment

Funny, Has the senate called the high paid leaders of the Smithsonian Institute, National Chamber of Commerce, National United Way, Salvation Army, and other non-profits? to task as well? Is the potential breaches of the law they are investigating high compensation for the executuves of non-profits and religious organizations, or ghetto ostentatiousness(bling). PS: Senators: Please don't forget the Pope and his American Cardinals (Have you seen the Vatican and St Patricks Cathedral in New York? -mega bling!)

Author

FrankMickens

Date

2007-11-09T08:20:55-06:00

ID

115626

Comment

Great commentary. We have to always be suspicious.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-09T08:34:16-06:00

ID

115627

Comment

I went through a divorce once between a former well known preacher in Jackson area. I testified on his ex wife's behalf. The preacher was ousted by 2 churches. He had stolen so much money from both churches for gambling and sex web sites to the point of it being ridiculous. I was devestated. I had known both since 1978. Not only that, but he had a girlfriend prior to obtaining the divorce. The day the divorce was final, they married. They also had another child after that. I know his current wife, she is miserable. AND!!!! he can't find real work. SAD!!!!!!!!

Author

JMK

Date

2007-11-09T09:25:25-06:00

ID

115628

Comment

Did y'all hear a priest has been stalking Conan O'Brien? Man if these priests don't hurry up and get some counseling they might start to doing something truly freaky deaky like getting a girlfriend or wife and having some children. Why aren't the guvment investigating them too?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-09T09:26:26-06:00

ID

115629

Comment

It's past time for churches to lose their tax exempt status. Churches are run just like any other business these days and should be treated accordingly. As far as these mega-churches are concerned, I've always viewed them as suspicious at best. And, I'm not just talking about the people who "run" them. As far as I'm concerned, if you're a member of one of these churches, you're as complicit as the rest. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced their hearts with many pangs." (1 Timothy 6:7-10 RSV)

Author

Katie P.

Date

2007-11-09T09:43:28-06:00

ID

115630

Comment

I belong to a mega church and attend at least once a month if I can. My involvement contributes very little to any nefarious ways, if any. Besides, we give a away big money. I'm not a part of the business mission of the church. I refuse to partake. I have been a lawyer for 3 churches and soon learned the leaders in 2 of them were crazy and quit. The more I saw and learned, the more I wanted to be a member of a hole in the raod, broke church seeking only God's approval, guidance, love, forgiveness, mercy and grace.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-09T10:02:14-06:00

ID

115631

Comment

..."I have no problem with people being prosperous, but it should be remembered Jesus had a clear stance on helping the poor and lesser and not extorting money in his name." ..My feelings exactly. Makes me think. I have a gym membership at said church and if that conversation actually happened d have to think twice about continuing to give my money to them. I find that the church based gyms are better suited for me cuz they're quiet but I may start asking what the churches do in the community before i give them my money. The guy was asked to leave REALLY?!! what was said?

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-11-09T12:41:23-06:00

ID

115632

Comment

We are unchurched right now. We've been to several churches since we've been back home, and they feel dead. That being said, the last church I attended where I felt life was a mega-church, Southeast Christian in Louisville, KY. We used to go on Sunday nights to their youth program, The Vine. Now, IG and I left our youth behind a long time ago, but we felt welcome there. And when the music started, and all those young people started praising God, you could feel the Spirit move. I haven't felt that since we left there. All churches have their problems. A small church I used to attend fired their pastor for remarrying. He divorced his wife on Biblical grounds (she was cheating), but then when he decided to remarry, they turned their backs on him. I thought that was very sad.

Author

Lady Havoc

Date

2007-11-09T15:06:41-06:00

ID

115633

Comment

I don't think that there's ever a truly correct way to address this situation. Personal accountability is extremely important. If a church does what it needs to do (of course, who actually gets to verify), there really is not a need for outside interference. Once pastors or clergy are exposed, what becomes of the flock? I'm sure one/some of you as well as people you know have turned their backs on FAITH altogether once finding out that the one place they felt was safe turned out to be a sham. Above, someone mentioned (Ray?) not placing trust in the people of the church. This is so important but it takes people years, maybe decades to figure this out unfortunately. That's one danger of a mega-church. Who can ignore the enormity? All dependent of the message, people want to see the results. This topic is so broad because people opened up the thought of giving of yourself [as opposed to] giving your last. Money and possessions have a huge impact on our lifestyles/mindsets. FAITH is supposedly all we need (forgive me if I'm leaving something out). When you look at your monthly spending plan, how much do you see is a need as far as your expenses are concerned? In order to meet these expenses we see that we NEED money to make those expenses. Katrina taught me a huge lesson even though my faith is SHORT. God will provide. Yeah the FEMA checks came, the hustles came, insurance came (for a percentage), celebrity support as well as the humanitarian aid came. I'm willing to bet any money (gotta catch me to get paid) that more than half of the people who received aid still find that they need MORE. We place so much trust in money/possessions that we don't feel any compulsion to share what we have. I'm not on a soapbox, because I stand right alongside others. I have not given significantly to any cause other than mortgage and student loans. When will I shed these "responsibilities" in order to do more for my brother? It's a worldwide epidemic and it's been around far longer than any official discovery of the Americas. Make your own subtle changes in the way that you act in your communities. If it's just about you and your children/family; what happens when you have and others have-not?

Author

lilsoulja

Date

2007-11-09T16:30:34-06:00

ID

115634

Comment

How are you doing, Lady? Indeed we need to get IG in church as soon as possible so he can learn that part about "stab not or harm ye brother, for you may not know what he's doing. He may not know either." Lisoulja, I hear you. I used to give thousands to churches but I have fallen off the last couple of years. I have to pay off some debt and do better soon. I don't feel good about the way I'm giving/living right now, and truthfully I felt more blessed and worthy when I was giving more. I don't blame any preachers or church folks for my current situation. I blame only me. "I love the Lord because he heard my cry and every groan. And yeah though I walk throu the valley of the shadow of death I fear no eveil becuae he is with me and his rod and staff comforts me."

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-09T16:50:29-06:00

ID

115635

Comment

Ray, what bible did you get that out of? Please, don't accuse me of being unchurched. I've been to SBC churches long enough to tell the entire tale of them falling from grace in New Orleans when the brain-dead fundies led by Pressler and Company took over. I know theology and the bible.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-11-10T09:03:40-06:00

ID

115636

Comment

Ghost, don't you know me well enough by now to not take everything I say seriously. You yourself said I'm the JFP mascot. I didn't really know I was until you appointed and annointed me for the job. I'm more than that though. I'm also a talented brother (believe it or not) who was born and reared in Mississippi, a place I love and hate. I have been trying for several years now to make interested people see another picture or wider view of themselves, the south, black folks, white folks, Mississippi and the world, et al. Some people see it. Some don't. Some people compliment and thank me profusely on here and off here. Some people can't stand me. I take it all in stride without getting too high or too low. You don't know this, but I even act like I have more sense nowadays once I found out how many people read what I write. You can call it an illusion if you want to. You also won't believe the comments and compliments I have gotten for my commentary on old dog the bounty hunter. No I haven't seen any of that in particular language mentioned earlier in the bible. Some of it though is in there in so many other words. Sreiously, I'm not questioning your knowledge or presence at church. Who am I to judge. Judge not lest you be judged. That part is in there somewhere. Ghost, I'm gonna have to meet you one day. Then and maybe then I'll discern why I un-nerve you so much. You don't really bother me very much, no matter my claim to the contrary. I just like to mess with you. And I only do it after you have slapeed me upside the head, so to speak. But don't stop.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-11-10T11:04:37-06:00

ID

115637

Comment

Who can tell when you're serious, Ray?

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-11-10T13:48:41-06:00

ID

115638

Comment

Lady H, Try Parkway Baptist on N Frontage Rd in Clinton before you guys give up on all the churches around here. If you have tried it before please give it another chance. From what you describe about your church in Kentucky I think you will like Parkway. The 11:00 service is more contemporary and we do have a youth program on Wed nights with praise music. There are also a lot of childrens activities. Here is the church's website: www.pbclinton.org

Author

jackbauer

Date

2007-11-10T20:36:49-06:00

ID

115639

Comment

Trying the link again since it didn't work the first time. The website give a lot of info about the church. http://www.pbcclinton.org/

Author

jackbauer

Date

2007-11-10T20:39:19-06:00

ID

115640

Comment

I understood from talk show this moring that a couple of these "goons" are on the Board of Directors of Oral Roberts. Linked into the recent scandal via association. That could be the reason for the broader investigaion. Everyone over here knows the antics of Dollar and Long. Hinn and the others are literally charactertures of themselves.

Author

ATLExile

Date

2007-11-11T08:04:18-06:00

ID

115641

Comment

pastors megachurch state interference Can't belive I got so far off the original topic. Okay, guess I always do that. lol Flashy pastors...hmm. It's amazing in a sense how much these pastors are looked at to be representative of a certain message. Some see the message as humility. Some have a message of prosperity. When I say "message" perhaps I should say "focus." That's why the positions of leadership can be dangerous (any size church) and subsequently scrutinized. Seeing how we the people place our trust in the state (but of course not as much as we put our trust in dat "Almighty Dollar"), it's only necessary that they step in to protect the sheep, right? Hopefully my sarcasm didn't slip past you guys. It's a very questionable act to have the state interfering/intermingling with the "business" of the church. I think I'm making this statement outside of the subject of taxation. What can you do when decisions are made to help the people but probably have other farther-reaching adverse impacts to the people (e.g. the Patriot Act)? What was the state like when Jesus walked the earth? Was the church and the state pretty much one in the same? Martin Luther (not Dr. King) and others recognized that there were some beligerant "changes" to what God's will was and what the leaders were enforcing. I won't lift his name too high as he was human as the next man, complete with an apparent shortness of humanity when it came to Jewish people at one point in his life. Okay, so I've gone a bit off-topic again (I'm doomed!!) but I felt it somewhat relevant. Mega-churches can't all be judged the same. I remember my first time in a church of a huge scale in Irving, TX some 15 years ago. It was stifling to me, but I was just a visitor. Who's to say that people won't receive the same message as in a smaller church environment? I do tend to question the sale of "miracle spring water" though. The second and third collections in one sitting tend to raise my eyebrow as well, though.

Author

lilsoulja

Date

2007-11-12T01:12:02-06:00

ID

115642

Comment

I appreciate that, jackbauer. We have attended Parkway in the past, but just did not feel welcome. We had a worse problem, though, at the new Morrison Heights. Hubby and I were both raised SBC, but have come to a parting of the ways with the convention as far as theology, so I really don't think we'll ever feel comfortable with an SBC church again.

Author

Lady Havoc

Date

2007-11-12T10:22:19-06:00

ID

115643

Comment

I hate to hear you didn't feel right at Parkway. I was raised in the SBC and felt the same away about the congregation. Then when we visited Parkway they were just differant than any other SBC I had ever been too. Everyone seem open and genuine to us so we kept visiting for a while and eventually joined. I hope you guys will give it another shot, but if not I hope you can find a church somewhere in town that you like. If anyone else in the Clinton area is interested services are at 8:30 and 11:00 with the late service being more contemporary and lively. Parkway is located on the N Frontage road in Clinton just West of the Clinton Raymond Rd interchange.

Author

jackbauer

Date

2007-11-15T14:00:47-06:00

ID

115644

Comment

Hey JackB, Nice to know that you get a good feeling from your church experience. Has this feeling motivated you and your congregation to do Jesus' work with the less fortunate in Jackson (notice I did't say Africa)? What % of your church budget of time, talent and treasure is spent in helping the less fortunate? Don't know? Well asking for that information may be one true test of the sincerity of your churches leadership. Ask for this information, sit back and watch what happens. Let me know what they say (and do). Mathew 19:16 -23 If you don't mind. I tried this at my church and was pleasantly surprised!

Author

FrankMickens

Date

2007-11-15T19:03:54-06:00

ID

115645

Comment

My church does have active ministries in Jackson (notice I didn't say Africa either) although we have some some there also. They range from working with the homeless to tutoring students among other things. I don't have the budget numbers in front of me, but they were sent out to the congregation last week and expenditures for missions were included. It's all out in the open. I'll just say this. A building projects and other items have been put aside so the church can better focus on missions. I'm not saying that makes us better than anyone or gives us a higher ranking with God. That just seems to be the focus of the church.

Author

jackbauer

Date

2007-11-16T09:22:04-06:00