Ellington

After approximately two hours of deliberation, the jury in the federal kidnapping and conspiracy trial of James Ford Seale returned a unanimous verdict of guilty on all counts. The jury found Seale guilty of two counts of kidnapping and one count of conspiracy in the abduction and murder of Charles Moore and Henry Dee.

"Mississippi spoke today," said Thomas Moore, brother of Charles Moore.

After the verdict was read, Seale turned to his wife, Jean Seale, and asked, "Are you OK?"

Family members of the victims embraced. Donna Collins, who is the daughter of Henry Dee's sister Thelma Collins, said: "I feel great. I feel like I could leap off the tallest building and fly because (her mother) can have some relief."

"I would like to thank the jurors for the work they did, that they did take care of Mississippi," Thelma Collins said.

Seale faces a maximum life sentence on each count.

Jurors began deliberating at 4:20 p.m. this afternoon after nine days of testimony. U.S. Attorney Dunn Lampton, who re-opened the case against Seale in 2005, delivered closing arguments for the prosecution, followed by Special Litigation Counsel Paige Fitzgerald, who began the prosecution's case with her dramatic opening statements on June 4. Federal Public Defender Kathy Nester, who was both creative and aggressive in her defense of Seale, spoke for the defense.

Lampton flexed his oratory muscles Thursday morning while describing the drowning deaths of Charles Moore and Henry Dee on May 2, 1964.

"They had to have been absolutely terrified, full of dread and wondering why," he said of Dee and Moore, whom he depicted as two well-liked, unobtrusive teenagers.

"They were just two people waiting for a ride," he said.

Lampton then described star witness Charles Marcus Edwards' testimony that Seale and other Klansmen picked up Dee and Moore, interrogated and beat them in the Homochitto National Forest, bound them in the trunk of Ernest Parker's truck and drove them through parts of Louisiana to Parker's landing, to be dumped in an offshoot of the Mississippi River.

"As that trunk opens, don't you imagine just for a second they thought they would be released?" he asked.

"Surely they struggled some, but they were outnumbered, and they knew what was going to happen. And I think we know what happened," Lampton told the jury.

He then described the thoughts that might have gone through Charles Moore's mind as he watched Henry Dee be drowned first—the order Edwards gave in testimony.

"And then Charles Eddie Moore heard the splash. And then they came back for him. And he's tied down, and he's beginning to think of the manner of how he's going to die. He would've looked in their eyes and sought some pity, some reason, some release—but he died."

He then described, in anguished detail, the physical process of drowning.

"His last thought would have been: 'Why? What did I do? Why am I here?' After 43 years, we're here to answer some of those questions for you," Lampton said, echoing the style of Fitzgerald's opening statement.

During that statement, Fitzgerald referred to Seale's Nov. 1964 statement to an FBI agent who had accused him of the Dee-Moore murders, "Yes. But I'm not going to admit it; you are going to have to prove it."

"Well, ladies and gentlemen, after 43 years, we are here to do just that," Fitzgerald said then.

During her closing statement today, she referred again to Seale's statement.

"Those are the words of a guilty man—defiant, arrogant and unrepentant," she said.

"This man managed to drown Charles Moore and Henry Dee, but he could not drown the truth," she added.

During Federal Public Defender Kathy Nester's closing argument, Seale's defense lawyer disputed the truthfulness of Edwards' testimony.

"All these years, he's been lying. All of a sudden, he decides to tell the truth," she said, defining "truth" as "the truth (the prosecution) wanted to hear."

"The facts in this case are few and far between, and the only facts that matter came out of the mouth of Charles Marcus Edwards," she added.

In response, Fitzgerald argued that Edwards admitted to fingering Dee as a Klan enemy, and to beating Dee and Moore himself, charges he did not have to level against himself.

"He came here 43 years after the crime and admitted to doing something terrible, and the very terribleness of what he told proves how terribly true it was," she said.

Lampton described the federal government's choice to offer Edwards immunity in return for testimony against Seale as a "deal with the devil."

"Charles Edwards has been given immunity. I don't like that. You don't have to like that. But it was the only way to bring (this case) before a jury and find some justice," he said.

After Judge Wingate's decision, Lampton stood on the front steps of the federal courthouse in Jackson and gave credit to his legal team.

"I'm proud for the families. They deserved this day in court, and they got it," he said.

Wingate will sentence Seale on Aug. 24 at 9 a.m.

Previous Comments

ID

131692

Comment

Per MSNBC, Seale may not have heard much of Lampton's closing today: Seale, who is hard of hearing, had been listening to testimony with the aid of earphones. He took them off during Lampton's hour-long closing argument. I think he knew his fate was sealed, and he had to tune out some of it.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-14T19:22:03-06:00

ID

131693

Comment

Hey all. I'm, sadly, not in Mississippi tonight, but I'm feeling the happiness all the way out in the Pacific Northwest. This is amazing news. I'm so, so relieved. It sounds like Mr. Lampton proved himself in the closer. Way to go, Wyatt Earp! (smile) My second thought upon hearing the news was "next?" BBC just did a phone interview with me (they can find you anywhere, I tell you, including while you're sitting in a panel about food coverage), and I told them that while this may be closure for the state, this was not the end for the state, not closure but an opening. It's time to get on with telling the next story of our martyrs of the past. Let's do it. Meantime, I'm doing a panel about covering "diversity" tomorrow a.m. The outcome of this case makes me pretty excited about trying to motivate others to do what we in Mississippi are doing—covering our full community, including old race crimes that stand in the way of racial progress. It just doesn't get any better than this, and my heart is overflowing for the families tonight. Cheers to you all.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-06-14T19:27:44-06:00

ID

131694

Comment

CNN Donna, I was wondering where you were. I know you wish you could be in town right now, but that's okay. I sure that joy is being felt from sea to shining sea, and we're just getting started. 'Bout time.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-14T19:31:39-06:00

ID

131695

Comment

I do wish I could be there, but at the same time, I realized that I should be out doing more work rather than at the trial every second. That's why Matt has been there and done such a great job. I've used the last few weeks to jumpstart some important new projects, which y'all will hear about soon. ;-) Also, this diversity panel here is really important. These kinds of victories won't happen if the media isn't covering the whole community. You will recall that most of the media had given up on this case, just as they've given up on all the others. That. is. unacceptable.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-06-14T19:37:29-06:00

ID

131696

Comment

LW, I don't think any of these old murderers listen. If they listened to their hearts, they would have tried to right their wrongs decades ago. They have had the opportunity to live a long life with these crimes in their hearts and minds without any thought as to the lives they have robbed. But know this, they still have to meet their Maker one day. But until then, "next" indeed Ladd!

Author

old&tired

Date

2007-06-14T19:39:47-06:00

ID

131697

Comment

Yes, if anything those other killers that still are out there are taking notice and looking over their shoulder. Time for them to feel a little fear!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-06-14T19:47:26-06:00

ID

131698

Comment

Pike, it would be easier if they would all just go to the nearest police station, confess and turn themselves in, but they're not going to make it that easy. The struggle continues...

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-14T19:56:07-06:00

ID

131699

Comment

An odd feeling. I have a real gut feeling he did it. I think he wasa part and should be punished. I am just not sure that the prosecution meet their burden. This is only from scanning transcripts, reports and attorney discussions, I did NOT sit in and I stress that Justice was served,in my opinion, but I wonder if the law was bent to serve justice. That troubles me. As an attorney I have too much wrapped up in "the law". I feel quite sure justice was served, I repeat, but it does make me wonder... If this was not a civil rights murder, just a murder at that time, with the same basic evidence... would there be a conviction? Remember, the law SHOULD protect the worst, as well as the best. I know this a philisophical debate of justice versus the law on what should be a happy day, and the Moore family deserved this. Just trying to inspire debate and thought. AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-06-14T22:27:19-06:00

ID

131700

Comment

I see your point, AGamm, but for me, the fact that he pretended to be dead made me realize that he had something to run from.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-14T23:10:39-06:00

ID

131701

Comment

I want to repeat... I am personally SURE he either did it or was a part of it or helped cover it up. I just get antsy on the ends justify the means in the law. That logic has brutalized too many people, including to protect those that now are facing justice. Now the ends have changed, and for the better, but I still have a problem with the burdens being either lighter or heavier, depending on the defendant. It still happens. I am not blind. I know that the color of my client and the color of the victim and the color of the jury will decide MUCH of the outcome (I have quite a few criminal cases) Still I still hope for progress and can see it, just at times it still far too slow AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-06-14T23:28:08-06:00

ID

131702

Comment

L.W. Re-reading my last post, I felt it almost looked like a swipe at you. I apologize if it is read that way, but it was not meant that way. I agree with your position persoanlly I am just want debate on the issue. I just wanted to insure that these were comments made and were clearly made on an intellectual level, not swipes or personal attacks. I was disappointed with the thread that evolved almost a "racisist" "not a racist" discussion. This area is better than that AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-06-14T23:38:28-06:00

ID

131703

Comment

L.W. Re-reading my last post, I felt it almost looked like a swipe at you. I apologize if it is read that way, but it was not meant that way. I agree with your position persoanlly I am just want debate on the issue. I just wanted to insure that these were comments made and were clearly made on an intellectual level, not swipes or personal attacks. I was disappointed with the thread that evolved almost a "racisist" "not a racist" discussion. This area is better than that AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-06-14T23:38:29-06:00

ID

131704

Comment

L.W. Re-reading my last post, I felt it almost looked like a swipe at you. I apologize if it is read that way, but it was not meant that way. I agree with your position persoanlly I am just want debate on the issue. I just wanted to insure that these were comments made and were clearly made on an intellectual level, not swipes or personal attacks. I was disappointed with the thread that evolved almost a "racisist" "not a racist" discussion. This area is better than that AGamma627

Author

AGamm627

Date

2007-06-14T23:38:36-06:00

ID

131705

Comment

That's okay, AGamm. I didn't see it as a swipe at all. I'm sure that some blogger will be able to better analyze this further with you than I ever could - perhaps another lawyer.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-14T23:54:09-06:00

ID

131706

Comment

Remember, the law SHOULD protect the worst, as well as the best. It does protect the worst. It doesn't protect the innocent.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-06-15T07:58:21-06:00

ID

131707

Comment

Iron, I have chosen a nickname for you: Eeyore. :-P

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T08:06:23-06:00

ID

131708

Comment

Even on this wonderful day after, The Clarion-Ledger is still trying to shape history in this story to fit their own simplistic narrative they have espoused over the years. They write today: Klansmen had long believed in their paranoid theories - that communists and others were smuggling guns to black Americans so they could stage an uprising. The latest rumor Klansmen circulated was one about black radicals hauling guns into Franklin County. There was no proof to back up this belief, but to Klansmen, the rumor was as good as gospel. At one meeting, a Klansman had even suggested Dee must be involved because he had just come back from Chicago. They seem incapable of acknowledging that the area was becoming a hotbed of self-defense at the time. Many blacks in the area were, indeed, empowered to arm themselves in self-defense against the Klan. This was a relatively new thing, and was what broke the back of segregation in Mississippi because nonviolence wasn't working. Now, this does not mean that the Klan was not overly paranoid about "black radicals" "gun-running" in the area. But they defined "black radical" as any black who would defend himself and his family, and it is also vital to understand that it wasn't easy for blacks to get weapons at the time, so there had to be some effort to get them into the area, and to even hide them once they got there. Yet The Clarion-Ledger acts like THIS history is conspiracy theory, presumably because they've never bothered to research and report it. And it's not a stretch to understand why they don't get this level of complexity in our history, being that they didn't bother to go down to Roxie and confirm that James Ford Seale was dead before they put it out to the world, and to Thomas Moore, that he had died. Thus, once again, we're stuck with the Ledger's black-victim-white-hero myths about our history. They also repeat the myth, indirectly, that the Klan had long been active by the time they killed Dee-Moore. No, the Klan rose up again in 1964 after decades of dormancy to fight civil rights activism, which was nonviolent early on. It was really in response to the terrorism of the Klan, which really started in an organized way in '64 in Southwest Mississippi, that African Americans started to arming themselves, culminating in official Deacons for Defense organizations by early 1965. I wonder if the Ledger has ever heard of the Deacons? There are many academic sources for everything I'm saying here, if they would bother to do any homework, instead of just repeating the same simplistic, faulty narrative that robs our people of much of our history. Read our story: Back in Klan Nation" for a less distorted picture. Also, note that they used Kate Medley's photo of Thomas Moore at the cemetary when she and I were down there with him and Ridgen on the original trip. They didn't credit her, of course. Sigh.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-06-15T08:16:33-06:00

ID

131709

Comment

NPR Morning Edition touched on the story this morning, had a stringer in Jackson.

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-06-15T08:19:27-06:00

ID

131710

Comment

Then-Council President Louis Armstrong pleaded guilty in 1999 to bribery and conspiracy to commit extortion charges for soliciting a bribe to influence a vote on a zoning matter. And former Councilman Robert Williams was convicted in November 1999 of attempting to extort $150,000 from Time Warner Cable. Melton has hired both men to work in his administration. Armstrong is director of the city's housing department. Williams worked for several months as as code enforcement officer. (extract from linked article) So, Melton really does stand by his belief in offering convicts a "second chance"

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-06-15T08:47:58-06:00

ID

131711

Comment

sorry, wrong thread

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-06-15T08:51:10-06:00

ID

131712

Comment

Izzy, I think you posted in the wrong forum. :-)

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T08:52:59-06:00

ID

131713

Comment

He could have taken the stand and denied doing it despite his right not to testify and have that used against him. We've often not 100% sure a person is guilty. Apparently he was quilty beyond a reasoable doubt to 12 jurors. May he live 43 years as a prison mate, not merely an inmate. Fortunately, he can't validly claim he was tried by a jury of his peers as he had 8 whites and 4 blacks.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-15T08:55:23-06:00

ID

131714

Comment

I meant "wasn't tried by jury of his peers."

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-15T08:56:27-06:00

ID

131715

Comment

I'm so glad, trouble don't last always Oh, Oh, Oh, I'm so glad -TROUBLE DON"T LAST ALWAYS. These words are from an old "Negro Spiritual." They just seem so appropriate for the victims families. What a relief for those who want justice served. I also feel a sadness for the young member of Seal's family who will have to find their way, establish their own biographies and not be saddled with the shame and guilt of the persons responsible for the crimes.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-06-15T09:50:00-06:00

ID

131716

Comment

I remember that song, justjess - the 90's choir version.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T10:14:27-06:00

ID

131717

Comment

I remember the bridge, too: Weeping may endure for a night Keep the faith, it will be all right Weeping may endure for a night Keep the faith, it will be all riiiiiiiiiight Then, a soprano goes AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH before they break it down. :-)

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T10:19:24-06:00

ID

131718

Comment

L.W., you have made my day! That song sends chills and tears. It only reminds up that sorrow is happiness shadowed and vice versa.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-06-15T10:56:23-06:00

ID

131719

Comment

I can't wait to pay for the last 5 years of this man's life. Justice has been served.

Author

Skinnyp

Date

2007-06-15T11:46:53-06:00

ID

131720

Comment

I hope his cancer goes into remission and he lives at least 20 more years. What he did he needs to have time to look at bars and maybe ask for forgiveness. People like him never do ask, that is why he needs to live a long time so this crime can stay on his mind. The family can rest a little easy now knowing this person has been found guilty. However I know they would feel better if he would acknowledge his crimes and ask for forgiveness. Haters rarely do.

Author

jada

Date

2007-06-15T14:18:31-06:00

ID

131721

Comment

I'm just glad this was done while he's still alive. Others escaped justice by way of the grave, and I'm sure he thought he was almost scott free.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T14:24:58-06:00

ID

131722

Comment

L.W., you have made my day! That song sends chills and tears. It only reminds up that sorrow is happiness shadowed and vice versa. Glad to be of service. I'm trying to remember which choir sung that. It's making my head hurt.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T14:26:26-06:00

ID

131723

Comment

I saw pictures of them putting up the new memorial (in the Clarion-Ledger). I'm so sorry I didn't get to go see it and get the opportunity to meet Mr. Moore. I wonder why they didn't let the folks know who were informed for the earlier date (that was canceled)? I had gotten the day off work and had reserved myself a room down there, and then didn't even get a chance to go to the rescheduled setting. Oh, well. The are reshowing the film on MSNBC tonight, but I don't have MSNBC. Does anyone know where I can get a copy for viewing? Are they going to put it out for sale or rent?

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-15T15:53:15-06:00

ID

131724

Comment

I saw footage of the ceremony on WAPT. Hollis Watkins was there singing, of course. :-) C.W., maybe you can see if you can get a copy from the CBC.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-15T17:11:24-06:00

ID

131725

Comment

I saw pictures. I wanted to BE there. :-) Hollis is always singing, bless him, and I always enjoy being around him and joining in. I heard a clip off NPR where Henry Dee's sister was talking about Edwards and how hard it was to forgive, but how she had to, because she wanted to get to heaven. She was in tears, and so was I; it was so moving and so ironic that these men could do the things they did and seemingly have no qualms about reaching heaven, and Ms. Collins is worried about getting in if she couldn't forgive them. She's a better woman than I.

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-16T10:49:11-06:00

ID

131726

Comment

I got the chance to speak to Thelma Collins throughout the trial, and after the verdict-- and I agree that she is an extraordinary woman. She had a sense of humor and human decency that allowed her to take in what the trial could offer her, and laugh about what it couldn't. (And the trial certainly had its humorous moments.) Collins told me that she could never wish the death penalty against Seale-- the maximum punishment he faces, in fact, is life in prison, which was the subject of a debate over the statute of limitations (Wingate ruled, correctly, that kidnapping is still a capital crime, even if the death penalty was removed as punishment after the crime in 1964). Collins also said that she feels bad that Seale had to go to jail at such an advanced age. But, as she told me, if you do the crime, you do the time. I think she, and all of the victims' families, displayed an extraordinary spirit regarding the trial. Even though prosecutors needed to use Edwards to convict Seale, it was an important act of justice that prosecutors had to do, if they wanted to see any justice at all. As for all the people who said that, because the case is so old, it ought to be forgotten, they're missing the point-- just because Seale got off for so long, doesn't mean he ought to stay free for good. The statute of limitations law applies only to non-capital crimes (a minor detail that has been misconstrued by, among others, the white supremacist spin doctors). As Paige Fitzgerald argued in court, some crimes crimes are so heinous, they must be prosecuted whenever possible. In this case, the prosecution managed to do just that-- even if it was 43 years late.

Author

msaldana

Date

2007-06-16T14:50:42-06:00

ID

131727

Comment

I couldn't have said it better, Matt. May I add that you did an awesome job.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-16T15:59:28-06:00

ID

131728

Comment

Yes, you did, Matt, I have to echo L.W.

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-16T19:17:56-06:00

ID

131729

Comment

Although I don't live in Mississippi anymore, I am a 7th generation Mississippian and I still own my family's land in Franklin County. It is sad that Thomas Moore is having to fight to keep a crummy roadside marker up for his brother. The best thing that has happened to Franklin County in decades is the 1000-acre lake and other developments in progress in the Homochitto National Forest. The Homochitto National Forest should be renamed the Moore-Dee Memorial National Forest. This beautiful 189,000-acre park would be a fitting memorial to these martyred young men.

Author

JRay

Date

2007-06-16T20:10:35-06:00

ID

131730

Comment

Now, there's an idea I could get behind. What a great memorial that would be! And what a reminder to the recidivists in the area who want to tear down the memorial markers the families put up. An aside to anyone who may know: I hate to bring this up again, but I never got a definitive answer before, and I am concerned. Was the money raised for the memorial stone used for reward money, or was it given to Thomas for the new marker?

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-16T20:42:14-06:00

ID

131731

Comment

Thank you, L.W. and C.W. (and all the other JFP bloggers) for your support during the trial. I didn't comment much on the Web site, but I read and appreciated all of your comments. It was a grueling process, but a wonderful one to watch unfold. I feel like I just took a semester's worth of law, journalism and history classes (with some special seminars in forensic pathology, search and recovery scuba diving, animal husbandry and-- most importantly, either side will tell you--geography) in two weeks. My brain's a little numb.

Author

msaldana

Date

2007-06-16T21:07:31-06:00

ID

131732

Comment

One note: I'm going through my notes and filling in parts of the blog where there are gaps. I've added new updates to the bottom of Days 6 and 7. There is some really interesting stuff in there, for anyone who's interested.

Author

msaldana

Date

2007-06-16T22:47:41-06:00

ID

131733

Comment

Getting right to it, thanks Matt!

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-17T07:02:41-06:00

ID

131734

Comment

I hate to bring this up again, but I never got a definitive answer before, and I am concerned. Was the money raised for the memorial stone used for reward money, or was it given to Thomas for the new marker? Maybe you should email Donna. I assumed it was used for the marker.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-17T14:01:37-06:00

ID

131735

Comment

C.W., I'm glad you brought that up. I asked Stephanie, who was collecting the tombstone fund, for an update a while back. She brought me an accounting of it, and the money collected, which I'm holding. The Moore family doesn't seem interested in a new tombstone--which I respect--and I tried to donate it to Thomas Moore for the new FRanklin County marker. But Thomas told me that they wanted black people in Franklin County to pay for the memorial. He suggested donating it to Charles Moore's dorm at Alcorn, but I'm not sure that is the most appropriate use for it. So now that the trial is over, I'd like those who donated (Stephanie gave me a list) to suggest how you'd like it donated. It would be perfect for a reward fund in other cases, for instance. And we could perhaps use it to try to jumpstart the reward fund through the Christian organization that raised money for information on the Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner murders and then in the Dee-Moore case. One thing to consider: Henry Dee has no tombstone whatsoever. We could give the money to his family for that purpose if everyone wishes. I think it's around $400 total; I have Stephanie's accounting of the donors and the totals back in Jackson. (I'm still out of town.) I'd love to hear feedback about where it should go. Feel free to write me directly about it, or post here. Once we establish the appropriate recipient, we could consider raising more from others in honor of this guilty verdict if everyone wishes.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-06-17T17:33:55-06:00

ID

131736

Comment

I say see if the Dee family would like to use it. Tombstones are costly. That's why my grandmother still doesn't have one.

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-17T18:26:57-06:00

ID

131737

Comment

I'm with L.W. Henry Dee needs a tombstone, if his family would like to use the money for that.

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-17T20:53:32-06:00

ID

131738

Comment

I vote for the tombstone too for Dee. I finally saw the MSNBC story last night from 11pm to 12. I was touched by Thomas' walking up to the man (Edwards) who participated in abducting his brother without wanting to shoot or choke him to death. A good illustation also on what many of us would do when faced with the killer of of our love ones. Edwards may have gained peace and salvation by apologizing and testifying. Glad to see Seales get what he has coming. What a disgrace to human kind he is!

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-18T10:35:40-06:00

ID

131739

Comment

I also watched the MSNBC story and for the 3rd time. Each time I heard or saw something different. It took a lot of guts to walk up on a person wtih that kind of violent history. Very little attention and news coverage was given to the case in 1964 when they pulled the three civil Rights workers bodies. Many other bodies were pulled while serching for Charles Moore and Henry Dee. I wonder where they put the other remains?

Author

justjess

Date

2007-06-18T12:11:24-06:00

ID

131740

Comment

Probably just buried them anywhere or threw them back into the river. This was classic foxes guarding the hen houses which I why I hate J. Edgar Hoover and nearly alll of his agents back then. Most, if not all, judges, prosecutors, law enforcement personnel and jurors were foxes too. And I'd be remissed to leave out the general majority population back then too.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-18T12:21:55-06:00

ID

131741

Comment

Lots of folks were foxes because they were afraid not to be one. In other words, the feared the consequences of going against the sentiments of the apparent or assumed majority. In some places judges' homes were shot into along with other threats being made. Even federal judges, many of which had lifetime appointment, were afraid of the fallout and violence. Boston Massachusett is a classic example of what happened to judges and others who sought to buck the system without fear. In many ways the town was and is worse than the deep south. I despise Boston and if I could I would remove the colleges/universities and some of the people then bomb the pace for the good of mankind.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-18T12:58:12-06:00

ID

131742

Comment

I take back the violence part. Don't want to be like Seales.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-18T13:02:07-06:00

ID

131743

Comment

It was also Boston, Massachusetts where the Black kids on the bus were beaten with chains during the school busing era. REMEMBER? Ray, your are going to fool around and get your name in the files of the most watched. (LOL)

Author

justjess

Date

2007-06-18T13:47:55-06:00

ID

131744

Comment

Yeah I remember. I listened to Charles Ogletree talk about Boston during the busing crisis and I thought I was back in Donna's hometown fighting and running from Price, Raney and other good white knight citizens looking to hang a brother. Ogletree drove from California after graduating from Stanford right smack dad into South Boston by accident while looking for Cambridge/Harvard and was scared crapless. He safely hauled tail out of there without incident. If you remember the photograph of the man being speared with the American flag, please note he was a black corporate lawyer headed to work.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-18T14:04:56-06:00

ID

131745

Comment

Wow. I've never heard of any of this stuff. You guys need to share more of these stories and educate the younguns. :-)

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-18T16:27:37-06:00

ID

131746

Comment

Probably just buried them anywhere or threw them back into the river. Ray, I've wondered about that myself; or at least who these people were. I wonder how many people (mostly black men), went north, went traveling, went out west, etc. etc., but didn't "really" go anywhere - just no one who cared had any idea what happened to them - or if they had an idea, that's all they had, and no way to do anything about it. As far as Boston goes, I remember the huge problem over busing, but I don't remember the guy being speared with the flag pole. Damn.

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-18T18:15:41-06:00

ID

131747

Comment

LW many other places throughout the country had and have similar race problems as we do in the south but it isn't talked about very much nationally or down here. I concentrate on the south because the south was/is likely the most blatantly and notoriously resistant to change. I also concentrate on the south because I live here and like the place absent the racism and prejudice. As a black person LW, you had better learn about Cicero, Illinois, Lorriane, Ohio, certainly south Boston and many other places we African American aren't wanted. About 2 years ago I watched a feature on Boston done by the Travel Channel. They shot the night life of the city in all its famous clubs and the only black folks filmed were Walker, Pierce and one other Celtic basketball player, and they didn't even look comfortable in those place. I was surprised they even participated in that sham. Bill Russelll and Reggie Smith would have declined. I finally visited the Boston about 6 years ago including some of the famous black neighborhoods. While in LA two weeks ago, I also visited depressed areas like Watts, South Central, the King/Drew/Harbor Hospital, and Compton along with some of the rich and upper class black neighborhoods and world famous spots that everyone flocks too. I always want to see how the black folks live in every town. It's my way of keeping it real.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-19T08:47:47-06:00

ID

131748

Comment

Well L.W. and C.W,. you really didn't have to do much to end up in that wet casket (MS River). Yes, many black males went mostly to the North. Because of the factory work in Chicago and Detroit, MI, these areas became a calling card - even for people who were not being threatened. Not just because "no one who cared had any idea what happened to them." Families felt and were helpless to do anything about the threat of a member being harmed. My father, now deceased, was a Mason. I can remember many nights when he and a few of his Masonic Brothers had meeting around our kitchen table and developed a plan to get a person (Black male) out of town. They were given money to help with their journey and my mother always prepared a shoe box with fried chicken and pound cake. Once a cross was burned in your space - It was time to go if you wanted to live. Just as parents have the fear of their kids getting hooked on drugs these days, our parents have the fear of our being killed. You were schooled on what to say, if confronted by a white person and one thing for sure - "never look them in the eye." This was the ultimate of disrespect.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-06-19T08:52:26-06:00

ID

131749

Comment

Justjess, one of my mentors was sent away when 18 because he used to fight back too much and question the police about why they were stopping and asking him unnecessary questions. Also, he wouldn't move off the road when he saw the police or other whites approaching him. His mother thought he would be killed soon so she packed a shoe box of food, his clothes, gave him the money she could spare then sent him to Indianapolis, Indiana. Even in the North or Midwest (whatever it's called) similar problems were encountered but there were factories to work in and segmented or segregated neighborhoods to live in. Most blacks found greater comfort up there than down here but racism was prevalent there too. Thurgood Marahall suing the hell out of every institution he could, Dr. King engaging in moral, non-violent and justified civil disobedience and Congress and a few Presidents finally doing the right thing (Civil Rights Acts, Voting Rights Act and executive orders) finally opened the door for black people albeit resistance still to this day. Curtis Mayfield told us in songs during the Sixties that, "We're winners, (and) We Gotta Keep on Pushing." So did King, Malcolm and many more. Gotta head out of town. Later.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-19T09:10:59-06:00

ID

131750

Comment

Thanks for the info. Looks like I have some research to do. :-)

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-19T09:37:24-06:00

ID

131751

Comment

justjess, I'm old enough I remember it from the other side, from listening to the adults around me, talking about how black people wouldn't get off the sidewalk for them anymore, how they'd stay right there instead of stepping aside, and dare someone to say something about it. That's exactly the way they talked, too, all angry and put out, like they owned the world and they should be treated like royalty. Geez, I never understood how anyone had the guts to stand up to that crap and actually stand their ground, all things considered. If I had been black back in those days, I probably would have just given in, and moved myself out into the street. Even as a kid, I knew this kind of attitude on the part of whites was so wrong, but I didn't understand why; I just knew then that it didn't seem fair. That's hardly a good word for the base thing that sort of discrimination and hatefulness was, but I was a kid. I have such respect and admiration for those who stood up to this horrid treatment and refused to give way, but I can't have any disrespect for those who didn't, considering the possible consequences. And that was just for keeping your own place on the sidewalk, not for anything spectacular or earthshaking. I think you understood what I meant about people disappearing and sometimes no one knew if they left town or were killed and gotten rid of on the sly, didn't you? Just wasn't sure. I know it didn't take much; it's hard to think about those days and the things that happened then. It's even hard to believe that people had the attitudes they did when I was young, but I remember it all too well. There's your answer to a previous question, Ray - why it hurts many white people to reopen these cases. They just can't stand to remember how they themselves used to be or think, they want to pretend it never happened. It's their guilty conscience, plain and simple.

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-06-19T16:30:54-06:00

ID

131752

Comment

Thanks LW.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-19T17:09:16-06:00

ID

131753

Comment

I meant CW.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-06-19T17:09:46-06:00

ID

131754

Comment

Too many W's around these parts. LOL When I picked a username for this site, I wanted something that wouldn't make it obvious that I was a female. I thought about using my first two initials, L.A., but I was afraid that people would think I was from Los Angeles. Then, I though about all three initials, L.A.W., but then I thought that people would think I was a lawyer. So, I picked L.W. thinking that that there would be no possibility of a mixup. Well, there goes that theory, ha ha. I don't mind, though. I would rather be confused with C.W. She's cool. :-)

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2007-06-19T17:17:29-06:00