Ellington

Per Joe Conason over at Salon, the right-wing machine is pulling some old dirty tricks out of its archive:

At first glance, the trick was merely an ordinary right-wing smear, twisting a small fact torn from context into a sinister accusation. Almost 40 years ago, little Barry Obama -- who would grow up to become a stellar law student, a bestselling author, a U.S. senator and a contender for the Democratic presidential nomination -- spent part of his childhood in Indonesia, where he lived with his mother and stepfather. During those years he attended an elementary school run by Muslims, long before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, and then as an adult joined a Christian church in Chicago.

Yet on the far right, poisonous propaganda can be concocted from the most innocent ingredients. That is precisely what the Unification Church's Insight magazine proceeded to do on Jan. 19, with the eager assistance of Fox News Channel and right-wing Web sites such as Lucianne.com. Insight portrayed the Indonesian school as a "madrassa," suggesting the Saudi-financed institutions that allegedly train Wahhabi terrorists in Pakistan and elsewhere, indicated, to incite religious prejudice, that Obama had been "raised Muslim" -- and then attributed these fabrications to political operatives in the Clinton camp.

These false claims lacked any sourcing, but that didn't prevent the usual media miscreants from broadcasting them, from John Gibson on Fox's "The Big Story" and Rush Limbaugh down to Melanie Morgan and her sidekick at San Francisco's KSFO radio station. Just the usual modus operandi of the noise machine -- except for that telltale twist of smearing Clinton with responsibility for the attack.

Where could they have gotten that brilliant idea?

Previous Comments

ID

110090

Comment

They need to leave Obama along. I can't wait to see what Hillary is going to do to try and weaken him. I'm with Obama 100% and Hillary too if possible.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-29T17:43:50-06:00

ID

110091

Comment

Got news for you, alot of this dirt is being dug up by Hillary's peeps.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T17:46:08-06:00

ID

110092

Comment

In fact this is what is coming out overseas: This Is London although after reading it I must say it doesn't change my opinion of him one way or another.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T17:47:34-06:00

ID

110093

Comment

Interesting story, King. I'm still not finished with the book. I'm about 80 pages from the end and haven't read any of the family stuff yet except for references and comments on his mother's teaching about religion. Hillary can totally lose me if she cheats or plays dirty with him. However, just as I didn't blame Jimmy Carter because his brother Billy was a drunk and embarassment I'm not blaming Obama for his daddy's deeds or his lack of clarity on who his daddy was.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-29T18:09:25-06:00

ID

110094

Comment

Trust me, it will be the CLinton assassination squad all over again. You know the drill. you know what they do.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T18:12:40-06:00

ID

110095

Comment

My feelings about this are conflicted. On the one hand, this looks like a dirty right-wing trick; on the other hand, this looks like a dirty Clinton trick. Both have reasons to do this, both are entirely capable of doing this, and both benefit from doing it and then blaming it on the other party. I am leaning slightly towards Clinton in my internal reasoning because it would make more sense for the far right to attack Obama later rather than now; I am leaning slightly towards the extreme right in my internal reasoning because they're the ones who started the rumors anyway by accusing HRC of same. It could be either. It could be both. Both could, and by the end of the day I'm sure both will. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-29T18:14:55-06:00

ID

110096

Comment

Don't discount Edwards. Read halfway down. http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10905 Obama's candidacy is a threat to his a well. Novak reported recently that Hillary and Obama hitting the same donors over and over so I look for brass knuckles between those two. He don't know what playing rough is til he faces her.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T18:22:41-06:00

ID

110097

Comment

Ooh. Good point--Edwards being quite possibly the only candidate in the Democratic race who would fight dirtier than Clinton. I remarked to someone recently on a listserv that if there were a true sociopath among the presidential candidates, I'd guess Edwards among the Dems and Romney among the Republicans. Both seem, for lack of a better term, soul-deficient. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-29T18:24:32-06:00

ID

110098

Comment

Well now, Bill Clinton, almost singlehandedly outsmarted and whipped republicans for 8 years. I see hardly anything bad about that. Can you say brillant! Gore probably would have avoided the cheating defeat he suffered had he embraced rather than fleed Bill Clinton. I don't fear the Clintons as much as I do republicans. Perhaps the Clintons will stab you sooner or later, but the republicans will stab you early, midways, sooner, later and even after you're dead. Heck, Cheney will even serve up a CIA agent and shoot a dumb lawyer foolish enough to go hunting with him. I'll take the least evil everytime if no better options. Smile. I don't expect Hillary and Bill to help Obama get the nomination. At least not early on.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-29T18:25:27-06:00

ID

110099

Comment

Ray: The Clintons smear machine was as dirty if not more so as any the Republicans ever head, even when Liddy was around. They thought nothing of disemboweling all opponents, their party had nothing to do with it. They would just as easily do it to a Democrat, and did. Alot of negative stuff on Kerry in 04 came from the Hillary camp and allies, not the Republicans. The Clintons think of the Democratic party as their plaything and will do anything to keep it that way.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T18:48:16-06:00

ID

110100

Comment

and Ray, he didn't singlehandedly whip them for 8 years. He managed to lose control of House and Senate while he was in office. While Clinton's fortunes advanced personally, for his party he was a disaster to some degree.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T18:49:22-06:00

ID

110101

Comment

Here is the story in insight: Insight Story Not a well written story. No named sources or any documents to support anything. However, saying it was before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism shows an ignorance about Islam. Islam does not have strains like Reform or Liberal Jews or sects of Christianity that are fundamentally different from other sects within the faith. There is no Islamic version of the Unitarian Church. It is all fundamentalist and pretty much always has been. The only differences for the most part have been over tactics and historical disagreements. The primacy of the Koran and its tenets has never been a debate as it has been within the Christian faith. There has been no Reformation or Enlightenment in Islam and that is one of the problems it faces.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T19:04:42-06:00

ID

110102

Comment

Kingfish, you've crapped all over this blog thread in record time. Where do I begin? I guess the natural place is with your first post. Got news for you, alot of this dirt is being dug up by Hillary's peeps. Did you notice that this story (and this thread) is about how Hillary didn't pull the dirty trick this time? That it was that bizarre section of the right wing noise machine owned by the Moonies? You've gotten it exactly backwards. Of course, you outdo yourself later: The Clintons smear machine was as dirty if not more so as any the Republicans ever head, even when Liddy was around. They thought nothing of disemboweling all opponents, their party had nothing to do with it. They would just as easily do it to a Democrat, and did. Alot of negative stuff on Kerry in 04 came from the Hillary camp and allies, not the Republicans. First, it is absurd to say that the Clintons played dirtier politics than Nixon. If nothing else, have some respect for Nixon. More to the point, substantiate your absurd claim that "a lot" of the attacks on Kerry came from Clinton. So Hillary was the source of the Swift Boat smear? Hillary said that voting for Kerry would embolden the terrorists? Understand that I believe that Hillary is capable of very dirty politics. The problem is, on the most simple level, one of evidence. Then there's the fact that this incident is about how right-wing blogs invented a story that was given legitimacy by a right-wing pseudo-publication using all anonymous sources--even the fracking journalist was anonymous--that were good enough for Fox News and Rush Limbaugh to state it as established fact. You know, the right-wing noise machine that's polluted our political discourse since David Brock worked for--gasp!--Insight trashing Anita Hill? In other words, what in the name of thrown monkey sh!t are you talking about?

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2007-01-29T22:31:52-06:00

ID

110103

Comment

Tom, I expect more from you than this: On the one hand, this looks like a dirty right-wing trick; on the other hand, this looks like a dirty Clinton trick. Yeah, I get that it "looks" like it could be either one, if you completely ignore the fact that: Right-wing blogs were buzzing about this even before the Insight article. Insight is owned by the Washington Times / the Moonies. Insight has one of the worst records in "journalism," both now and throughout its history. Right-wing talk radio is currently obsessed with this topic. I listened to arch-idiot Sean Hannity blather on about it for 10 minutes today. Given these facts, I don't see how you can waver on the source of this, regardless of how much you hate Hillary Clinton. Honestly people, am I in bizarro land? The New York Times has even run a story on this scam, for frack's sake.

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2007-01-29T22:44:13-06:00

ID

110104

Comment

You know, it's waaay early to be this concerned about an election that won't change anything for the common man.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-01-29T22:50:51-06:00

ID

110105

Comment

From the Times: The controversy started with a quickly discredited Jan. 17 article on the Insight Web site asserting that the presidential campaign of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was preparing an accusation that her rival, Senator Barack Obama, had covered up a brief period he had spent in an Islamic religious school in Indonesia when he was 6. (Other news organizations have confirmed Mr. Obama’s descriptions of the school as a secular public school. Both senators have denounced the report, and there is no evidence that Mrs. Clinton’s campaign planned to spread those accusations.) In an interview Sunday, Mr. Kuhner, 37, said he still considered the article, which he said was meant to focus on the thinking of the Clinton campaign, to be “solid as solid can be.” But he declined to say whether he had learned the identity of his reporter’s sources, and so perhaps only that reporter knows the origin of the article’s anonymous quotes and assertions. Its assertions about Mr. Obama resemble rumors passed on without evidence in e-mail messages that have been widely circulated over the last several weeks. Solid as solid can be, eh?

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2007-01-29T22:51:47-06:00

ID

110106

Comment

Brian: Did you not see where I said story was poorly written and had no real sources? Just said "sources" and that was it. Based on the Clinton's history, I can see where Hillary's operatives would pull such a stunt. It would not surprise me at all. At this stage of the game, I don't think the right wing did it to Obama. Not because I love the right wing so much, but because at this stage, who has a bigger motive? The Clintons have always played hardball against fellow Democrats. Hillary would think nothing of cutting the throat of a fellow Democrat if it meant she could get the nomination and keep control of the party as any long time observer of the Clintons would tell you. As for the Clintons not playing dirtier than Nixon, I was referring to smearing opponents. Colson went to jail for ONE FBI file. They rifled through over 100 of them and nothing happened. Nothing. Obama should be glad he was a nobody at the time they were in office. Don't take my word for it. Read anything covering the Clintons by Elizabeth Drew, Woodward, Isikioff, and other authors. If you want to get into a cite fight on this issue, we can if you want to do so. Brian, you are DELIBERATLY putting words in my mouth. I did not accuse Hillary of Swift Boats. I did not accuse her of making that comment. However, it has been written that some of the dirt that came out on Kerry over the last few years was dug up by the Hillary camp. By the way, FOR THE RECORD, I did not attest to the veracity of those stories. I merely linked them to show what was out there. I found the London story more interesting than the Insight one. Any critiques of the Insight Story I agree with. Its poorly written and if written by a left wing rag I'd be attacking it on the same grounds. I think either they were played by a leaker, made it up, or heard something at cocktail hour they didn't verify. I suspect they were played by a leaker and it was soooo juicy they ran with it instead of doing basic reporting and research. I am merely recognizing how rough the Clintons play and that I can see it being the case. NOW has some of the right wing media run with it? Yes and they should know better or if they do cover it, make clear that there are no sources attributed to the story. So for the record, read my original comments, I didn't say that the story was accurate and said it was credibly writtten. Right now, I lean towards the Hillary side, not because of that story though. I look at the motive being stronger for her at this point than the so called right wing media. Right now she and Obama are competing for the same donors and she sees him as a rival. Rivals don't last long against her. I'll attribute the story to sloppy reporting and the need to pander to its audience but I wouldn't discount being played by leakers as well.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T23:49:36-06:00

ID

110107

Comment

let me clarify further. I don't think its a coincidence these stories are starting to pop up in London papers. That is why I think Hillary. I can agree with you on the Insight Story but some of this other stuff is starting to bubble up in other places from other sources not related to the conservative publications.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-29T23:55:59-06:00

ID

110108

Comment

Brian, I don't get... Tom, I expect more from you than this: ...that. Is Tom violating the Liberal Code by doubting The Word? If mistrust of HRC is enough to get you in trouble, there's a lot of people who are in that boat. True or not, the Clintons have a reputation as some of the best players of the low-key smear game. I could easily believe they leaked it to a badly written Right Wing mag on purpose to lay early groundwork against a popular opponent.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-01-30T09:33:27-06:00

ID

110109

Comment

King stop trying to create division between the next president and vice-president of the United States of America. And King, how much are the (f)rightwingers (dual meaning) paying you to keep spreading tall tales for them? You gotta be on salary or you're being used my brother.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T10:14:23-06:00

ID

110110

Comment

I fully expect FOX News to be the "breaking" news outlet for any smears about a democrat during the primaries. Hillary, Obama, Richardson, or Edwards... As long as a right leaning media outlet breaks the story it plays into the "right-wing smear machine" mantra that they preach. It's not that brilliant of a tactic to feed the right bad things about other democrats so they will spread the news for you. To actually think that Hillary, and the others are not doing this is naive. Even Lady Macbeth couldn't wash the blood from her hands. Please, let's just replace this crappy, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton flat tire we keep riding around on.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-01-30T10:18:51-06:00

ID

110111

Comment

Iron, it's not violating the liberal word, and as I said before, I wouldn't put this past her. I am not a fan of Hillary Clinton, for many reasons, and I certainly would not vote for her in the Democratic primary. What bothers me is that both King and Tom started off this thread by acting as if the clear links between this story and the right-wing smear machine weren't there at all. You can lay out the emergence of the story from right-wing murmurs to Insight to Fox News and they still say, "This must have been Hillary." That, my friends, shows an unhealthy Hillary obsession. As for you, Mr. Fish, you did get around to questioning the Insight story, but only after proudly missing the point in your earlier posts. I did not mean to put words in your mouth regarding swift boats, but you said "alot" of the attacks against Kerry came from Hillary. I was trying to get a sense of why you think so. As I said before, considering the volume of right-wing attacks against Kerry during the election--and of course, it was the right wing that came up with and spread the swift boat nonsense, not Hillary--it seems ridiculous to me to say that "alot" of the attacks came from her. The London story is hardly better than the Insight story. At least some of the sources are on the record, but do you notice the strange thing the article does, over and over? It reports that "relatives" or "friends" say something awful, but then the quote that follows from the only named source tends to be perfectly innocuous. Anyway, I don't know how a London tabloid bolsters your case that the story originated with Hillary. Finally, looking at who had the motive is a fruitless response, since both Hillary and the right wing had motive. Or why is right-wing radio soiling itself with enthusiasm over the story? That aside, this is the same kind of broken logic conspiracy theorists use to justify their arguments. "I mean, it only makes sense that the government brought down the towers. Who had the motive?" You'll have to do better than that.

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2007-01-30T10:20:53-06:00

ID

110112

Comment

"Please, let's just replace this crappy, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton flat tire we keep riding around on." Quoted for agreement. I'm not sold on Obama just yet, but it hard as a black man not to get excited about his candidancy. I've always believed that the black man or woman who becomes our first black president (BJ Clinton doesn't count, with all respect to Toni Morrison) would be someone from the post Vietnam era with NO direct ties to the established civil rights movement or hierarchy, and Obama seems to fit the mold. The media is having an orgasm in building him up right now, but as we've seen so often in the past it's only a matter of time before he is deconstructed and torn down whether its by the MSM, the Right-wing or HRC camp.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2007-01-30T10:44:52-06:00

ID

110113

Comment

Well I'm on the last chapter in the Audacity of Hope. Obama is certainly a unique brother and person from all I can discern. He has more faith in our ability and willingness to be a global beacon of hope for ourselves and others than anyone I know. I get the impression he's beyond feigning and pretending to care while surreptitiously maintaining the status quo. The "powers that be" don't want any change and the bulk of the american public is too fickle to ever see the truth anyway. He doesn't seem to be messed up or paralyzed by the racial constraints and restraints of the average American or the American policy toward the rest of the world, especially the Third world. And he's clearly brillant, patriotic, caring and firm. I can't wait to see what his candidancy proves about who America still is, and where America still stands. And I can't wait to see what Black America will say and do about his treatment and candidancy. Michael Jackson said "I'm stating with the man in the mirror."

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T10:55:42-06:00

ID

110114

Comment

In complete honesty I can't wait to see how this matter of running for president will unfold with respect to a woman too. Yes, I know their policies, positions, credentials (which are outstanding), fitness, performance, etc. matter too.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T11:12:49-06:00

ID

110115

Comment

with all due respect Brian, how old are you? seriously?

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T11:14:30-06:00

ID

110116

Comment

I went ahead when I put the link in the thread and immediately said it was poorly written. I should've added take it for what its worth. I'm not slamming Obama, I am merely putting here what is out there. One criticism I do have at times of this site is when things are discussed without a link for people to read what is originally at issue, like the Leonard Pitts thread for example. Not once was the story ever linked unless I missed it. That was my only reason for doing so Ray.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T11:17:57-06:00

ID

110117

Comment

Hillary is favored because of Bill. Her stock is automatically very high at this point and a lot of people believe that having Bill near this Middle East mess will ensure the best possible chance of ending the war and America becoming the country it once was. Dirty tricks against Obama are not necessary. She is the Democratic front runner. Now, lets looks a little deeper. Obama, at this point, is in second with Edwards a distant third. Hillary's problem comes when it is time to choose a running mate and she must explain (just thinking ahead) why she did not choose Obama. The elephant is still under the green on the pool table and I think that more people are beginning to see him/her. ejeff1970, the media attention of Obama has decreased appreciably over this past week. Everything now is about Hillary. Personally, I like Hillary and a Hillary - Obama ticket for me would be great! My reality, however, is the simple fact that it will not happen. Just as Hillary waited for the best possible time to launch her candidacy, so will Obama. I think that Obama knows and understands that this is the time for him to build, out-think and out-live the negatives that others have stooped so low to harm him with. I have finished his book. The section re family is outstanding and the only thing that I can say is that his mother was a great parent - always wanting the very best for him and so it seems, the best was given and the BEST was received by him. Now we must do our BEST to make sure that this man of both races is not torn apart because his physiognomy appears more Black than White. This (IS IS) you know.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-01-30T11:36:34-06:00

ID

110118

Comment

All is well between us, King. I like it that you're independent minded and of a different view on many thing than I am. The feel the same about the various other people who disagree with me and think I'm looney. I don't have any hatred, ill-will or real dislike of good and decent people who share different views. If no one diagreed with me I might start thinking I'm brillant or special in some way like republicans erroneously and frequently do! Smile. I hope we're all learning, growing and evolving toward more toleration and love beyond our varied and mere perspectives. Thanks Jusjess. I loved your comments.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T11:56:19-06:00

ID

110119

Comment

In the third sentence I meant I feel the same about .... Y'all know I got problems with language, diction, spelling, grammar and thangs.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T12:02:25-06:00

ID

110120

Comment

Brian: Did you not see where I said story was poorly written and had no real sources? Just said "sources" and that was it. Based on the Clinton's history, I can see where Hillary's operatives would pull such a stunt. It would not surprise me at all. At this stage of the game, I don't think the right wing did it to Obama. One way to read this is actually a swiftboating of *Hillary*. With Obama able to attack the veracity of the claim pretty forthrightly (the notion that he's a sleeper agent for Islamofascism is pretty ludicrious to all but the far right's tin foil hat brigage), the truly nefarious suggestion is that that *Hillary* pushed it. Little bites like this might be aimed at giving traction to the narrative that "Hillary's operatives would pull such a stunt" even if, well, they didn't. Remember, it was push-polling the idea that John McCain has an illegitimate black children in South Carolina that may have turned the tide of his primary campaign against Bush. And we've got a new word now, "swiftboating" thanks to the 2004 elections. GOP operatives are good at this, and they've put together a Limbaugh/Hannity/Fox News machine that gets the messages out. Smear Campaign If you're looking for a reason for the right-wing machine to push this smear, it's not necessarily taking down Obama...it's a narrative about how corrupt, angry and dangerous the Hillary machine is, etc. I think that's why the Hannities of the world would push it...it makes the whole Dem side of the aisle look as mired in muck as the GOP tends to be -- the perceived front-runner in particular. Result: disenchanted independent voters, which plays into the GOP's national strategy.

Author

Todd Stauffer

Date

2007-01-30T12:16:10-06:00

ID

110121

Comment

GOP operatives are good at this, and they've put together a Limbaugh/Hannity/Fox News machine that gets the messages out. iTodd One word: Gravitas! Ok... And Carville and Begala, who are working for Hillary, work/ed at CNN. etc... Yeah... Both sides get to keep us tied in knots while they fark up most of the time! I'm more interested in the candidate that is talking solutions... We need to think ahead. This baby-boomer righteousness is going to make our future that much harder to straighten out.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-01-30T12:47:50-06:00

ID

110122

Comment

While all or most attention is focused on Obama and Hillary, I'm still concerned about who is or will be the front-runner in the other party. I can't stand Juliana. He allowed too many innocent brothers to get killed for my taste then protected the cops who did it. Plus what skills does he has to help us shore up and improve our global or world stature? What will he do at home besides declare the country a police state where minorities are in large numbers. I'm worried it would be open season on abusing and killing black folks under his administration. All I know is that he likely performed well under pressure during the 9/11 fiasco. I'm not even sure how most whites or other non-black races feel about him. I doubt many Black Americans would vote for him. What make him any more capable and desired than Obama or Hillary?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T13:34:54-06:00

ID

110123

Comment

I should add that I do know he was a federal prosecutor and lawyer for years before becoming mayor.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T13:43:28-06:00

ID

110124

Comment

i bet you didn't mind all those rich white folk in suits he threw in jail when he was a federal prosecutor. I bet you said it was good for em. ;-) Then there was the mob. So he don't discriminate. He prosecutes everyone.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T13:47:30-06:00

ID

110125

Comment

Well , Juliana is truly riding the coat-tail of 9/11. I'm with you Ray on his seemingly insensitivity towards African Americans. Almost everyone had something bad to say about Juliana before 9/11. Remember the scandal with his then mistress and the sleep-overs at the mansion? I'm wondering if any person of reasonable intelligence could have done what Juliana did in his role as Mayor after 9/11? I really think that he was simply the name to put on the actions of what was a given. The true test of his ability to lead came with the position he took after the beatings and killing of so many black men by his MEN IN BLUE. New York had become a nightmare for Blacks.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-01-30T13:49:50-06:00

ID

110126

Comment

Bush is a dictator.................. Guiliani killed so many Blacks.............

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T14:02:05-06:00

ID

110127

Comment

Actually, Kingfish, Giuliani's policies were horrendous in communities of color. You can make fun of that fact all you want, but it doesn't change anything. Rudy took profiling to a new level. (Why do you always ridicule race-related facts that make you uncomfortable? It doesn't work, you know. We've all grown up around that annoying little game our entire lives. Save it.)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-01-30T14:18:13-06:00

ID

110128

Comment

I am just pointing out that when Guliani was US Attorney he went after rich white targets and having some fun with Ray in the process. The fact is also that crime was improved under him then it was under Dinkins, who was a disaster.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T14:39:54-06:00

ID

110129

Comment

I don't have time now to have this discussion, Kingfish, but I'm well aware of what happened with crime then. The crime improvement in NYC coincided with the good economy of the '90s, and it was mirrored in other cities that did not use Rudy's policies. So he can't take credit for it—and in the end his policies cost the city many, many millions in lawsuits. Also, folks who cite Rudy's policies also like to leave out the fact that very strict gun control was at the very heart of it, not to mention constant violation of civil rights.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-01-30T14:43:24-06:00

ID

110130

Comment

Actually, if those white folks in suits and mobsters were innocent, I do mind them being arrested and convicted. I also mind it if they didn't get a fair trial. I wouldn't encourage or ratify their being shot down like hogs ready for slaughter. Perhaps a God-fearing and annointed republican like you and Juliana could! King, very few people can legitimately accuse Ray Carter of not having balance, a sense of history, some foresight, and sufficent intellect to handle opponents and attacks. Yet I didn't anticipate such response from you this time. I also make a good effort to be fair. I often offend many races on the positions I take. Lots of black folks accuse me of not being black enough. Lots of white folks say I'm too black. The truth of the matter is that I'm never locked solely onto any issue based on race alone. Anyway, I know Juliana prosecuted mobsters and white folks, too. Yet I'm very correct in stating what many blacks and other minorities think of his policies toward them. Books can be written about Juliana's insensitivities and arguably racist views or actions toward black folks and other minorities. And he did often protect the police from repercussions and fallouts from obvious wrongdoings. Monies were later paid in many of those situations. I guess I should count myself lucky to get such a response from you when I wasn't seeking it this time. A good lawyer could argue your reply wasn't really responsive at all and instead only emotional hogwash. I don't know any good lawyers so you're still fine with me. Injustice anywhere is an affront to justice everywhere. Sho Nuff.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T14:44:55-06:00

ID

110131

Comment

Kingfish, you have a way with putting a spin or just down right altering the tone, spirit and language of some of us whose views on certain issues are different from yours. You definitely have a right to your opinion; however, it would be good, for a change, if you debated what the person actually said rather than create a total metamorphosis. I did not say that Guiliani (and thanks for the correct spelling of his name) personally killed anyone. What I did do was address the position he took after the beating and killing of mnay black men by his MEN IN BLUE, better known as police. Read the stories. OK. I want call Bush a dictator. I will not tell you what's in the box. I will simply describe it.and allow you a chance to call the WOLF ugly. Ready? He (Bush) said that he is the "WAR PRESIDENT." He (Bush) said that HE is in charge and it does not matter what Congress says, "I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND." He (Bush) said that he would send 22K men/woman into Iraq. He did. He (Bush) said that he didn't care what Congress said, "I'm sending them anyway and we will just see what THEY will do when THEY (The Troops) don't get what they need." Our government is suppose to be "of the people, by the people and for the people." These statements made by GW, fly in the face of a Democracy - that form of government that Bush is pretending to implement in Iraq.

Author

justjess

Date

2007-01-30T14:51:18-06:00

ID

110132

Comment

Dinkins was bad. We wanted to throw him out of our fraternity for embarassing us. I also know some black folks who voted for Juliana instead of him.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T14:52:10-06:00

ID

110133

Comment

Thanks for the correction on the spelling of his name. I may even spell it right the next time depending on how I feel.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T14:56:17-06:00

ID

110134

Comment

It's press day, King, so I'll be very brief. We actually tried to post the Leonard Pitts column but the CL never put it on their Web site, possibly because they just picked it up as a syndicated column. As for my age, I'm 30. What's your point?

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2007-01-30T14:56:41-06:00

ID

110135

Comment

no spin at all. I think its over the top calling Bush a dictator and say we are ruled by one just like I thought Bible Thumpers calling CLinton the anti Christ was over the top as well. Bush can do nothing that Congress does not fund. If they feel that strongly about stopping what you think is an unjust war, then it can alway rein him in that way. How many Black men were killed by his police that were unjustifiable homicides? I've no idea. Just an honest question. Guiliani didn't declare war on Black people and then have his cops murder them which is what I implied from your post. Ray: I confess, was being a smartass with you. my apologies. I know how you look at all sides. Just having a little fun in the same vein you and I quip back and forth over Melton and his pimpmobile and Njamers. As for your last post, I can't disagree with anything in it.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T14:58:35-06:00

ID

110136

Comment

King, how many innocent people should be allowed to die that way? One is too many and unjustified. Several is unfathomable and unconscionable. No one can dispute that his policies breeded a climate where unnecessary force was often the rule rather than the exception as it pertained to blacks. When I visited New york several times during his administration I walked around with my wallet and identication in my mouth. I wasn't about to go in my pockets for anything while up there. And it arrested I was going to hang myself in order to avoid forced broom-sex.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T15:20:09-06:00

ID

110137

Comment

It was an honest question Ray. I didn't deny or dispute anything. I just asked how many.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T15:24:04-06:00

ID

110138

Comment

Under Giuliani, the NYPD shot up lots of young black and Hispanic men under very suspicious circumstances. In a few cases, folks were tortured, sexually assaulted, and so forth. This is not speculation. This is fact. Under Dinkins, despite the higher crime rate (which would seem to imply more frequent violent interaction between police and suspects), these cases were far less frequent. This is also fact. I don't think, and I doubt Ray thinks, that Giuliani said "Oh, let's see how many low-income black and Hispanic youth we can wipe out." I think it's clear he decided early on, though, that he did not really give a damn if police sometimes went a little too far in enforcing the law. Likewise, I doubt Don Rumsfeld approved of the entire spectrum of abuses that took place at Abu Ghraib, but I have no doubt that he approved and allowed the training of U.S. personnel in the use of mild torture, and they carried that training to its logical conclusion. Giuliani got a lot of good press after 9/11, but he's not a very good man. Not at all. The way he treated his wife makes Clinton look like St. Francis of Assisi. I do not believe he's presidential material, and I don't think he'll get the Republican nomination either because most social conservatives, contrary to the PR, are not partisan hacks. After Clinton, they will not want to elect someone with Giuliani's personal history, his views on social issues aside. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-30T15:25:31-06:00

ID

110139

Comment

"in enforcing the law" --> "in the name of enforcing the law" (obviously, breaking the law goes no further in the direction of enforcing it)

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-30T15:30:07-06:00

ID

110140

Comment

Yeah, Rudy announced that he was leaving his wife for his mistress *on television,* without telling her or the children first. He's pond scum.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2007-01-30T15:35:21-06:00

ID

110141

Comment

King, you and many others crack me up with some of your questions and comments. Y'all should thank God that I'm patient and kind, love and admire my friends who let me post here, and there is a goal and method to the purpose I'm trying to serve here. It's working too although not everybody can see and appreciate it.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T15:40:58-06:00

ID

110142

Comment

ya'll tell me honestly, IS there a viable presidential candidate who ISN'T scum? I'm serious

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-01-30T15:59:06-06:00

ID

110143

Comment

ya'll tell me honestly, IS there a viable presidential candidate who ISN'T scum? I'm serious laurel I have found the candidate laurel to lead us all!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-01-30T16:11:45-06:00

ID

110144

Comment

Rudy's ex-wife should have taken a page out of Pat Fordice's book. :-)

Author

C.W.

Date

2007-01-30T16:14:36-06:00

ID

110145

Comment

Good question, Laurel. I wish I had sense enough to give a good or right answer. I doubt we can find one candidate without known imperfections, nascent blemishes, shameful past indistretions or a record that some of us wouldn't think is unbecoming. We seem to desire perfection although none of us know anyone with it, if we be honest. That's why I like Obama's approach to trying to tell the truth about your past. Either you do it or others will gladly oblige you while trying diligently to hide theirs. I wouldn't run for an office like that. Some people argue you sell your soul to get there and then kill or severely batter your enemies just to stay. And I would argue that this appraoch has been taken to a new level the last few years. But the truth of this would cause an argument. Smile. And this isn't really nothing new from a global standpoint. It has being going on in one fashion or another for centuries. I hear that the United States of America was formerly above such low down tactics. Not anymore I don't think. All we can hope for is that somebody decides to be above the fray this time. Winning seems more important than anything else. I nominate you, Laurel, since all I know about you is good stuff.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T16:47:53-06:00

ID

110146

Comment

Oh, Laurel, I think I misread your question. None of the present ones in the race are scum. All are ok, I think. Even Hillary, my friends, so far.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T17:00:23-06:00

ID

110147

Comment

I stand corrected, "Ruby is pond scum." I guess he didn't hear the song lyrics, "Never trust a big ____ and a smile." And to do it on televison w/o telling the wife. Fellows when you say to death do you part, remember what you're saying. Rudy looks just like the kind that a pretty body could come into the oval office and get the secrets to our security and keys to Fort Knox. And if she really skillful, I bet he would show her where the nuclear button is.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T17:25:40-06:00

ID

110148

Comment

Ray: go back and read past races such as when Andrew Jackson ran for President and you'll see its actually been dirtier in the past. http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1282/

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T18:27:47-06:00

ID

110149

Comment

O.k., King, I'll search the issue.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-30T18:35:00-06:00

ID

110150

Comment

I'll put it this way. I don't recall Laura or Hillary or Barbara or Nancy being called prostitutes.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-30T18:42:38-06:00

ID

110151

Comment

Andy never did forgive the press for that. I'm amazing Freedom of said Press survived.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-01-30T19:29:39-06:00

ID

110152

Comment

Wow, Ray, so I'm a viable candidate and so is Hillary? Somehow the humor is making me feel better. I don't really hate Hillary but I struggle with this serious distrust of politics and politicians. In a way, hearing that it was always this mud-slingish makes me feel better, as I feel our country has a lot to look back on and be proud fo Pike, my husband and I got a bick kick out of the jedi knight link.

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-01-30T21:47:50-06:00

ID

110153

Comment

But Ray, you make an interesting point - that we expect perfection from our leaders and attack when they fall short...

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-01-31T08:40:42-06:00

ID

110154

Comment

Politics and politicans bother me too. I don't like either and was happier when I didn't care. If the good, fair and decent people don't care and feel compel to try and make government work for the benefit of the masses; the greedy, powerful and selfish few will take over and ensure that government serves only their goals. At least this is what I fear will happen. So, I reluctantly participate.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-31T11:35:00-06:00

ID

110155

Comment

Laurel, some people attack them when they fall short. I attack when they lie to me. I understand well the shortcomings and limitations of man and woman. Just tell the truth about it when you can. I even know there are times when politicans, especially a president, can't tell the whole story. But if you make a career or presidency out of lying, deceiving, and taking advantage of my kindness and ignorance, it won't be long before I discern the truth and send your way some dire and hurtful consequences.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-31T11:43:20-06:00

ID

110156

Comment

I should add that I don't want a dummy for president. The job is too hard and difficult for that. I don't want a racist as racism is a past most of us are trying to overcome. I will fight for my country even as an aging man, but I don't want to fight or die in a stupid war run by a bully or stupid or dumb person. We can argue all day about whether Bush fits this mold. For some people, the jury has deliberated and ruled on this.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-01-31T11:58:00-06:00

ID

110157

Comment

Go ahead, defend this quote by biden about Obama: http://observer.com/20070205/20070205_Jason_Horowitz_politics_newsstory1.asp

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-31T14:59:59-06:00

ID

110158

Comment

Thanks for the link, Fish (the server seems to be overloaded, so here's an alternate). This is at least the third ambiguously racist remark Biden has made over the past year, and I would have to be an idiot at this point to believe that this pattern is purely accidental. Biden should drop out of the race now. We don't need our own George Allen. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-31T15:33:55-06:00

ID

110159

Comment

Here's the quote, BTW: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy ... I mean, that's a storybook, man." He doesn't think, though, that Obama can win the presidency because he is "a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate. ... I don't recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic." Joe Biden is a race-baiting idiot, and you can quote me on that. The funny thing is that Obama is the only announced Democratic candidate who has laid out a specific withdrawal timetable, in accord with the ISG recommendation, and the only announced Democratic candidate who is on the record as opposing the Iraq War in 2002, when it actually mattered. So Biden's argument basically is that Barack Obama is young, black, and charismatic, and therefore can't possibly know what he's talking about. I say that Biden is old, white, and slimy, and young, black, and charismatic trumps that any time. Get out of the race, Joe. You blew it. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2007-01-31T15:38:31-06:00

ID

110160

Comment

and he doesn't say: mashed potatos, cranberries, whoa whoa

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-01-31T15:43:30-06:00

ID

110161

Comment

Biden's an ass. I thought that long before this latest gaffe.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2007-01-31T16:02:53-06:00

ID

110162

Comment

I like what Ray's saying, and I relate...we have to keep trying to find out more and weigh out the person.

Author

Izzy

Date

2007-01-31T21:39:48-06:00

ID

110163

Comment

Dead-duck presidential hopeful Joe Biden finally showed why he was bragging so much recently about having Ex-Sanator Stennis' old desk as his now in the senate. He's more like Stennis than we knew. I wish he had been nice enough to tell Jessie, Al, Shirley, Carol, et al, before they ran for president to take more baths, clean out their closets, learn to communicate better and they would have a better chance at winning. Lord, I tell you this patriarchial white supremacy capitalistic society can't seem to stop raising and developing old-style fools. Becoming a lawyer and senator apparently plays no role whatsoever in learning to see others as your equal. I guess if you're a dumbass before getting to the senate nothing is likely to change. The Democrats need to do as the republicans are doing and teach classes on how to respond to questions about Obama and Hillary. I saw one of the republican flyers that admonished their candidates to be polite and kinds, and most of all don't call that Obama a ______.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-01T10:30:15-06:00

ID

110164

Comment

Biden is neither bright, nice-looking or articulate (as this gaffe showed the world). I have no idea if he's clean or not. His statement reminds me of a classic Chris Rock joke a few years ago about Colin Powell: "Whenever Colin Powell is on the news, white people give him the same compliments: 'How do you feel about Colin Powell?', 'He speaks so well! He's so well spoken. I mean he really speaks so well!' Like that's a compliment! Sh*t! 'He speaks so well' is not a compliment, okay? 'He speaks so well' is some sh*t you say about retarded people that can talk! What do you mean he speaks so well? He's a fuc*ing educated man! How the fu*k you expect him to sound, you dirty motherfuc*er? 'He speaks so well!' What are you talking about? What voice were you expecting to come out of his mouth? 'Imma drop me a bomb today', 'I be Pwez o dent!'."

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2007-02-01T14:58:58-06:00

ID

110165

Comment

Thanks, Ejeff. Too funny. Even the curse words didn't damage this piece. I bet Senator Stennis said from his grave yesterday "That Biden has been dumb a long time."

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-01T15:08:02-06:00

ID

110166

Comment

Ah the dirty tricks of Hillary rear their ugly head.... From some blog spot... Obama Camp Takes Lincoln Bedroom Shot The Obama camp has responded to Howard Wolfson's demands. From spokesperson Robert Gibbs: "We aren’t going to get in the middle of a disagreement between the Clintons and someone who was once one of their biggest supporters. It is ironic that the Clintons had no problem with David Geffen when was raising them $18 million and sleeping at their invitation in the Lincoln bedroom. It is also ironic that Senator Clinton lavished praise on Monday and is fully willing to accept today the support of South Carolina State Sen. Robert Ford, who said if Barack Obama were to win the nomination, he would drag down the rest of the Democratic Party because ’he's black.’" Obama's camp has a really good point!!!! He would be a better president just because he is a better person than Hillary. Needless to say, Geffen has dropped Hillary like a hot rock.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T11:39:16-06:00

ID

110167

Comment

you haven't seen the last of them.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-21T11:53:02-06:00

ID

110168

Comment

Probably repubs doing it and blaming Clintons.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T12:04:06-06:00

ID

110169

Comment

I'd like to link to the Dowd column in the NYT. But, I don't want link to subscription sites. So, here is the article that summarizes what the beef is... Clinton campaign spokesman Howard Wolfson just released the following statement: "While Senator Obama was denouncing slash and burn politics yesterday, his campaign's finance chair was viciously and personally attacking Senator Clinton and her husband. "If Senator Obama is indeed sincere about his repeated claims to change the tone of our politics, he should immediately denounce these remarks, remove Mr. Geffen from his campaign and return his money. "While Democrats should engage in a vigorous debate on the issues, there is no place in our party or our politics for the kind of personal insults made by Senator Obama's principal fundraiser." If Hillary was indeed sincere about free speech, she would shut her mouth and let Obama run his campaign as he sees fit. You think Hillary has some issues with Geffen? Aand vice versa! LOL! I'm beginning to like Geffen: Among other things, Hollywood and music mogul Geffen told Dowd, "God knows, is there anybody more ambitious than Hillary Clinton?" and "Obama is inspirational, and he’s not from the Bush royal family or the Clinton royal family. Americans are dying every day in Iraq. And I’m tired of hearing James Carville on television.” emphasis mine Amen brother!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T12:06:54-06:00

ID

110170

Comment

or the Clintons doing it knowing most people will assume its the Republicans. Who knows? Nothing about politics surprises me.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2007-02-21T12:06:58-06:00

ID

110171

Comment

Ummm... This article is pretty clear. I don't see how you can draw a republican conspiracy here folks... This is strictly internal democratic fighting. It does happen during primaries. Let's stay on path folks!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T12:10:05-06:00

ID

110172

Comment

Carville is a good man. I can't stand his wife though. What a nutcase. A liar. A sick looking woman. I haven't seen much of her lately. Hopefully, she's gone for good this time. A good Democrat ought to be able to find someone better to sleep with than that woman - the enemy. Bill Clinton can fix Carville up better than that. If the repubs will serve up a CIA agent why wouldn't Carville's wife serve him up without any remorse or contrition? Any time I'm around a repub I keep my hands (both of them, wouldn't trust just one) on my gun.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T12:21:32-06:00

ID

110173

Comment

you know, I make a comment about a young democrat leaders looks on this site I get crucified, Ray can talk all day about a Republican's looks. got it.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-21T12:24:20-06:00

ID

110174

Comment

Yeah Ray, that last post is a bit tacky. But, free speech... It's your karma not mine...

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T12:40:38-06:00

ID

110175

Comment

I simply meant she looks mean, concerned about only the rich, backward instead of forward thinking, like she backs stealing by Haliburton, fighting an unnecessary war costing untold American and Iraq persons lives and millions of American dollars, like she supports Haggard and Foley in their indiscretions against the public, parishners and children, like she supports the Texas Hammer, like she supports that vote stealing former secretary of state from Florida, like she supports lies baout fiscal responsibility but doing just the opposite. You know King, stuff like that. that's all I meant.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T12:41:06-06:00

ID

110176

Comment

I apologize if any of my republican friends got the wrong impression.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T12:42:33-06:00

ID

110177

Comment

Pike and King, stuff like sending more soldiers to die in a war she and friends underestimated and can't win while her love ones stay at home and continue to lie and fool the public. Stuff like that.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T12:46:24-06:00

ID

110178

Comment

Well, I guess her and Carville are just two peas in a pod then! ;-)

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T13:03:01-06:00

ID

110179

Comment

Pike and King, I'm surprised y'all are so easily bothered by my talking about republicans. I'm not like Kerry or Gore or Obama, I do plan to kick republicans while they're down! It's the easiest time to kick them, and its the political way we do thangs in America! Y'all are still my friends though. I expect the same when you get able.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T13:09:59-06:00

ID

110180

Comment

A sick looking woman. I haven't seen much of her lately. Hopefully, she's gone for good this time. A good Democrat ought to be able to find someone better to sleep with than that woman - the enemy. Ray I'm just surprised you "talked up her skirt" Ray. Word is Ray, that the more conservative the person - the freakier they are in the bedroom! Which really doesn't explain why they want to get rid of all the sex shops? ;-p

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-21T14:46:52-06:00

ID

110181

Comment

I didn't say anything under that woman's dress. The ladies in my family and life raised me better than that. And, most of all, I like and respect women too much to do this willy nilly. King, talked under the Democrat lady's dress, I think. Coulter is the only person I ever came clost to doing this too. If the simple remarks about "sleeping with" in that context is the same as talking under her dress then I apologize for lack of foresight and caution.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-21T15:30:19-06:00

ID

110182

Comment

HAHAHAHAHA. Let the games begin. from WSJ tonight: Clinton-Obama Fight Rattles Party Faithful By JACKIE CALMES February 22, 2007 Forget President Bush. The Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama presidential campaigns have gone after each other in an unusually early and nasty exchange, provoked by a big Hollywood donor. An email fusillade yesterday left many Democrats shaking their heads that party infighting -- like everything else about the 2008 presidential campaign -- is starting so soon, nearly a year before the first nominating votes. Aides argued all day over who started the exchange. Unaffiliated strategists in both parties suggested the Clinton campaign had overreacted, thus telegraphing concern over Mr. Obama's fresh-faced appeal and risking the ire of Hollywood backers and black voters. But they also said the Obama camp shouldn't have taken the bait and muddied its candidate's call for a new, positive politics. The spark was a New York Times column quoting anti-Clinton remarks by film and recording mogul David Geffen, a former Bill Clinton supporter. On Tuesday night, he and his DreamWorks SKG co-founders, Steven Spielberg and Jeffrey Katzenberg, hosted a $1.3 million fund-raiser for Mr. Obama, a first-term senator from Illinois. Mr. Geffen was quoted calling Sen. Clinton, of New York, an "incredibly polarizing figure" who was too scripted to admit her 2002 Iraq war vote was a mistake, and saying her husband was "a reckless guy" who "gave his enemies a lot of ammunition." By the time most political reporters got to their offices, they had an email from Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson: "While Sen. Obama was denouncing slash and burn politics yesterday, his campaign's finance chair was viciously and personally attacking Sen. Clinton and her husband." He demanded Mr. Obama denounce Mr. Geffen's comments, remove him from the campaign and return his money. An Obama spokesman said Mr. Geffen has no official title or role in the campaign; Mr. Geffen said the same in a statement standing by his remarks. Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs soon fired back. "We aren't going to get in the middle of a disagreement between the Clintons and someone who was once one of their biggest supporters," he wrote, before noting, "The Clintons had no problem with David Geffen when [he] was raising them $18 million and sleeping at their invitation in the Lincoln bedroom." That was a reference to the Clinton-era controversy over using the White House as a fund-raising tool. Within an hour, Mr. Wolfson sent a final volley, in an email headlined "Obama Embraces Slash & Burn Politics." It noted that this week, in a campaign appearance in Nevada, Mr. Obama had railed against "the slash and burn politics that have become the custom in Washington." On the subject of hypocrisy, the Obama camp countered that Mrs. Clinton had "lavished praise" Monday in South Carolina on a black state senator who supports her -- though he recently was quoted as warning that if Mr. Obama were the party's nominee, the Illinois senator would lose and drag the entire Democratic ticket with him "because he's black." The Clinton advisers said the campaign -- though not Mrs. Clinton personally -- had quickly issued a statement that "we strongly disagree" with the state senator. And he issued an apology, "if I caused anybody -- including myself -- any pain." Later, campaigning in Iowa, Mr. Obama said, "It's not clear to me why I'd be apologizing for someone else's remark," according to the Associated Press.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T00:26:55-06:00

ID

110183

Comment

For her part, Mrs. Clinton declined to be drawn further into the dispute at a forum of eight candidates in Carson City, Nev., yesterday. "I want to run a very positive campaign, and I sure don't want Democrats or the supporters of Democrats engaging in the politics of personal destruction," she said. Asked twice whether Mr. Obama should rebuke Mr. Geffen, she replied, "I'm going to leave that up to the other campaign." Then, in what was seen as a dig at Mr. Obama, she said, "I'm glad to be here in Carson City." Mr. Obama had skipped the event, citing his prior campaign commitments in Iowa. Later at the forum, another rival, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, was asked whether Mr. Obama should denounce Mr. Geffen. He quickly said yes, then added, "I don't know what was said." Write to Jackie Calmes at [email][email protected][/email]

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T00:31:18-06:00

ID

110184

Comment

the best part is that Sid Vicious hasn't gotten involved yet. Wait til he starts throwing mud. Oh, I wonder if Ickes will help out. He can fight real dirty as well.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T00:39:40-06:00

ID

110185

Comment

The latest Hillary joke: Hillary Clinton goes to a primary school in New York to talk about > the > world. After her talk she offers a question > time. > > One little boy puts up his hand. The Senator asks him what his name > is. > > "Kenneth." > > "And what is your question, Kenneth?" > > "I have three questions: First - whatever happened to the medical > health > care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight years > in > the office as President? Second - why would you run for President > after > your husband > shamed the office? Third - whatever happened to all those things you > took when you left the White House?" > > Just then the bell rings for recess. Hillary Clinton informs the kids > that they will continue after recess. > > When they resume, Hillary says, "Okay, where were we? Oh, that's > right, > question time. Who has a question?" > > A different little boy puts his hand up. Hillary points him out and > asks > him what his name is. > > "Larry." > > "And what is your question, Larry?" > > "I have five questions: First - whatever happened to the medical > health > care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight years > in > the office as President? Second - why would you run for President > after > your husband shamed the office? Third - whatever happened to all > those > things you took when you left the White House? Fourth - why did the > recess bell go off 20 minutes early? Fifth - what happened to > Kenneth?"

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T02:26:23-06:00

ID

110186

Comment

Now that this has made national news, it does seems the CLintons are playing dirty and causing anger and defections. If they keep this up they will one day reach the depths and lows of republicans. Still a long ways to go though.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T09:21:32-06:00

ID

110187

Comment

hahahaha. funny Ray. funny. Remember, they didn't mind prosecuting the travel office employees and ruining them just to give their friends the travel office business.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T09:27:36-06:00

ID

110188

Comment

admit it Ray, you laughed when you read it.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T09:35:20-06:00

ID

110189

Comment

Yeah it was funny. However, the good Democrats and true Independents are not going to let anyone (not even Hillary and Obama and most definitely not deceitful republicans) delude, inveigle or trick us into not fullfilling prophesy and self-love by voting the remaining republicans out of office. Rome failed by unchecked immorality, unlimited deceit, misuse of power, corruption, latent or nascent thievery and indefatiguable imperialism and greed. I'm surprised you're not against these misdeeds King.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T09:49:49-06:00

ID

110190

Comment

Rome didn't fall for any of those reasons as any serious student of history will tell you.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T09:51:38-06:00

ID

110191

Comment

Rome did have these problems. And these problems did participate in the decline and failure of Rome. These same misdeeds contributed to the failure of many dynasties and nations. Notwithstanding popular written history this is why many if not all European nations felll out of favor. These kinds of inhumane diseases of the spirit eventually corrupts to a point of no return. I particularly note that you didn't claim any innocence of these. I could have just been bullcrapping, but I could have been serious too.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T09:58:19-06:00

ID

110192

Comment

Did anybody see This Modern World a few weeks ago? Now that was funny...

Author

Rico

Date

2007-02-22T10:02:00-06:00

ID

110193

Comment

Don't forget all the FBI files they found at the White House! I am really surprised that Hillary would bring that one Senator from SC on board after he made those comments a few weeks ago. And, did you see her comments on the confederate flag while in SC. Sure she said "personally" she wold remove it. That's cool! But, she kind of went gray when she said it should be removed "in part" because we should unite under one flag in a time of war. WTF? So, is she going to use that line in MO or TX or WA? No... By that logic, all states should abandon their flag in war, and just fly the US flag. I must have missed that civics lesson.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-02-22T10:06:39-06:00

ID

110194

Comment

Obama is lucky he was a nobody when they were in office or else they would have his file with the raw data.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T10:12:00-06:00

ID

110195

Comment

Hillary is not as smart as Bill or Barack based on how she handled that question. I'm growing to dislike her. I know she wants the southern racist vote too for fear that Obama has the black vote locked up or can take it. She needs to determine who she really is and stop trying to be everything to everybody. Who would trust a person like that?

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T10:13:41-06:00

ID

110196

Comment

why shouldn't she? Bill succeeded doing that for 8 years.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T10:17:25-06:00

ID

110197

Comment

Yeah, but he didn't do those republican things listed above. Five Bills aren't as bad as what we have now. Without Lewinsky incident, Bill would have even a greater legacy. Only a fool would choose what we have now. Look where it has taken us!

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T10:24:49-06:00

ID

110198

Comment

Ray: stay away from Roman history please. That is nothing at all why it fell. The Republic was pretty corrupt for centuries and manage to kick everyone's azz while it committed every sin under the sun. Caligula was probably one of the most twisted rulers ever yet it survived for another 400 years after him. It fell because it allowed the barbarians to settle in the Empire until they were overrun with them. Used to be they would conquer them and wipe out their armies, then Commodus decided to start accepting tribute instead and letting them buy their way out of trouble. Eventually they were overrun with barbarians when in the old days a Sulla,Caesar or Trajan would've decimated them instead of letting them settle. The Army also let its standards and discipline lapse as well. It got to the point where in the last 100 years, no Roman or Italian could join the army and the emperors for a long time ceased to be Roman. Not to mention Christianity sapped the martial spirit of the empire and something dear to liberals like yourself, the bureacracy, became so big that it stifled all growth and its economy.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T10:31:28-06:00

ID

110199

Comment

they just allowed Chicoms to get nuke secrets in exchange for campaign contributions Ray, that is all. And by the way, I have never voted for Bush.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T10:34:56-06:00

ID

110200

Comment

King, for most of that post I though you were describing what happened to the republican party and this country. I'm more than just a liberal; I'm also progressive on all matters, and conservative on some.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-02-22T10:36:44-06:00

ID

110201

Comment

you still look guilty.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-22T10:54:59-06:00

ID

110202

Comment

Ray: Peggy makes some very good points about this dispute. enjoy. http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110009700

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-02-24T01:11:24-06:00

ID

110203

Comment

Let the dirty tricks continue. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/politics/bal-te.obama02mar02,0,3453027.story Hillary has very long knives.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-03-02T13:08:21-06:00

ID

110204

Comment

This doesn't mean anything to me. My parents had slaves too. One of them was named Ray Carter.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2007-03-02T13:24:16-06:00

ID

110205

Comment

Here is a good piece on McCain by Peggy Noonan. Some interesting observations about McCain and Bush. http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110009731

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-03-05T11:13:47-06:00

ID

110206

Comment

Not sure if Mr. Ehrenstein is on or off point with his comparison of Barak to the mythical "Magic Negro" Not knowing a lot on this topic (I'm more a Charles Chesnutt kinda guy), I suspect he is missing his point with Barak. He then uses the cinema to expand on his theory. Yet, his argument is lacking, especially with his example of Morgan Freeman: As might be expected, this figure is chiefly cinematic — embodied by such noted performers as Sidney Poitier, Morgan Freeman, Scatman Crothers, Michael Clarke Duncan, Will Smith and, most recently, Don Cheadle. And that's not to mention a certain basketball player whose very nickname is "Magic." Poitier really poured on the "magic" in "Lilies of the Field" (for which he won a best actor Oscar) and "To Sir, With Love" (which, along with "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner," made him a No. 1 box-office attraction). In these films, Poitier triumphs through yeoman service to his white benefactors. "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" is particularly striking in this regard, as it posits miscegenation without evoking sex. (Talk about magic!) The same can't quite be said of Freeman in "Driving Miss Daisy," "Seven" and the seemingly endless series of films in which he plays ersatz paterfamilias to a white woman bedeviled by a serial killer. But at least he survives, unlike Crothers in "The Shining," in which psychic premonitions inspire him to rescue a white family he barely knows and get killed for his trouble. I just went through Morgan's IMDB profile, and I can't seem to find the "endless series of films in which he plays ersatz paterfamilias to a white women bedeviled by a serial killer." The misrepresentation of Freeman's career aside, does this guy's editorial of the "Magic Negro" as it relates to Obama hold water? Is is hitting or missing the mark? I can somewhat see where he is going; but, I can't shake the feeling that he is belittling Obama in some elitist way. A little help, input...

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-19T13:08:58-06:00

ID

110207

Comment

Not to kill my own post above; but, I didn't know Morgan Freeman was Count Dracula on the Electric Company in the 70's! Or, if I did, I'd forgotten. Awesome! I thought he was just the voice; but, no he really appeared as Count Dracula!

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-19T13:24:54-06:00

ID

110208

Comment

Pike, I'd call it a two-fer. 1. Obama isn't a "Black Candidate". He's just a candidate the white-guilt crowd can understand. He's not really Black, you see. 2. It's a subtle dig against the white voters, for picking someone they understand and can accept rather than someone with more "credentials" or some such nonsense. 'Course if he'd just said what he meant, I couldn't read in those two points. :) I could be miles off, who knows? Say what you mean, people!

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-03-19T17:47:12-06:00

ID

110209

Comment

Here is the quick and dirty version of "Magical Negro" from Wikipedia. And look at how quick this page got updated! U.S. Senator and presidential candidate Barack Obama has been cited as a real-life example of a magical negro by L.A. Times columnist David Ehrenstein. I'd have to say he is taking a dig at Obama, and those whites who support him. Or he is "supposin'" on behalf of alot of people as to why we might like Obama. The writer is missing why Obama may be the breath of fresh air we need, and it's not because of color. Obama is neither the "magical negro" or the "trickster" as in stories by Chesnutt in the "Conjure Woman" That fact that he can't run this race without people digging up "labels" and Hollywood stereotypes to somehow define Obama for us shows that we still have a long way to go. Shows this writer has a long way to go! Obama, for the most part, is saying the right things and carrying himself very well early on. The only other person out there even saying similar things in regards to finding solutions over all this bickering is Newt Gingrich, and he's not running. Who here really believes Hillary "wants to have a conversation with you?" ;-) Time will tell if Barak is truly able to unite the middle or just another democratic hack like Howard Dean. But, it will be his words and actions that do so, not his color. But, I'd rather let Obama tell me who he is, and not some elitist Hollywood editorialist.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-19T18:13:40-06:00

ID

110210

Comment

Obama's supporters can't even make a good commercial without it being questioned by the Hillary pandering press. This 1984 adaptation is great! So, what if Hillary is shown as Big Brother! How is that dirty politics? Why is this commercial not Obama's style? It's pretty clever to me. She runs a campaign of blame and fear. That's big brother-ish, and very Melton to take it local. Obama is going to need to point that out over time if he is going to win over swing voters. De Vellis, in a blog he wrote after he had been identified by Huffingtonpost.com, appeared to acknowledge the trouble he had brewed. "I support Senator Obama," he wrote. "I hope he wins the primary. (I recognize that this ad is not his style of politics)." I think both De Vellis and Barack need to strengthen their backbones. In the Internet world we live in, more and more people are going to use it to express there views about who they support. Hillary needs to hire some more creative people like De Villis to create ads as clever if she can't stand the heat! At least she can't fall back on her tried and true blame phrase this time: "It's a right-wing conspiracy!"

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-22T10:01:12-06:00

ID

110211

Comment

I warned you. ;-) Did I not? Yeah, he needs to get tough. And whining to Maureen Dowd about comments about his ears is not tough.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-03-22T10:14:30-06:00

ID

110212

Comment

Dick Morris has a good column on how Obama catching up with Hillary. Obama gaining

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-03-25T08:13:55-06:00

ID

110213

Comment

You know the Kaze actually said that Obama's campaign people keep derailing him when the topic of this commercial came up on Kim Wade. I was shocked he agreed with what the mainstream was trying to say about this ad. Later that night some talking heads said, "welcome to the new age of politics," and that you will see more rouge promotions by supporters of candidates. Many thought this was brilliant! It was Kaze. Sho' nuff! My problem wasn't that a person at the ad firm of Obama's made this without his knowledge (O RLY), it was that he didn't defend the person's right to free-speech. That he didn't say, "We didn't produce that ad; but, we agree with the content. Hillary is not running in the best interest of America, etc..." But, it is going to be hard for him to do this because he is positioned as far left as Hillary which means attacking his own views and policies. Now that she's "Not for the war" there is little difference. Well, except that Obama is married for love and family, not convenience! He's a more eloquent speaker. He comes across much more real and friendly. He's more charismatic. He probably doesn't feel "entitled" to the presidency as Hillary does. He IS a Cubs fan! Hillary will always have an edge internationally; but, that is about the only thing she has an edge on. What will be interesting to watch is how they use the military issue between candidates? Who served? When? Yet, with Hillary, she couldn't be drafted. Obama too young. So, should it be an issue if another candidate didn't serve in the military/Vietnam? This may be one other reason why Kerry dropped out. There will be no need to stick your chest out and say, "I served our Country in battle," and all that stuff. Both Obama and Hillary questioned Bush's ability to lead because he only served in the National Guard in 2004. It's a non-issue for me, always has been. But, service to our military has played into presidential campaigns throughout our history. But, facts show that one of our best war time presidents didn't even serve - FDR. So far Obama's one-up'ed Hillary twice in the last few weeks. First with Geffen (sp?), and then with the viral creativity of the Obama supporters. That 1984 ad was a blow across the bow of battleship Hillary saying we got the young, young at heart (that's an old ad), and the creative behind us. What you got?

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-25T10:30:41-06:00

ID

110214

Comment

I think the military service requirement is going to get scarce, with more and more people having grown up in the age of the volunteer military.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2007-03-25T11:46:29-06:00

ID

110215

Comment

Actually pikersam what I said was more along the lines of everything that comes out of the Obama camp will be raked over with a fine-toothed comb. He's going up against some poltical assasins in the Clintons. They're seasoned campaigners and he's going to have to make sure that everythingthat comes out with his name on it is scrutinized. Otherwise, Hillary may use it to her advantage. People watch the news and take things at face-value unfortuntely and if Hillary's camp can make Obama's camp look like its playing dirty politics then they will (Even though it may be the other way around) Barak's gonna have to learn to play this dirty game we call POLITRICKS! Im all for him but have absolutely NO FAITH in America's readiness to elect a Black man president. He's a s close as we've come but good ole US of A still isnt ready.

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-03-25T18:52:27-06:00

ID

110216

Comment

Your right Kaze. You did expand on the point you were making on the radio. I was just taking the two step forward, one back, statement that prefaced all of what you said. I should have explained your point better. I was focusing on the ad because initial reactions were negative as if Obama didn't have control of his team. I found it odd that Hillary's team took such offense to a viral ad created by a rogue ad guy. I was glad to hear you point fingers at Hillary, and not just dismiss every attack on Obama as a right wing hit. Both will come hard at him. That shows that both think he is a much more formidable opponent regardless of color. It's going to be fun to watch.

Author

pikersam

Date

2007-03-25T19:11:55-06:00

ID

110217

Comment

..."I found it odd that Hillary's team took such offense to a viral ad created by a rogue ad guy. " Don't think they took offense to it at all really..they're just playing the game IMO. And believe me its GAME ON!

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2007-03-25T19:19:31-06:00

ID

110218

Comment

no comment. no comment

Author

Kingfish

Date

2007-04-23T08:31:05-06:00