Ellington

So, do y'all think this frat at the hoity-toity Johns Hopkins University on up in Baltimore is integrated?!? AP is reporting:

Johns Hopkins University has suspended the Sigma Chi fraternity because of a "Halloween in the Hood" party that drew protests by black students. The invitation to the party, posted on the Web site Facebook, encouraged guests to wear "regional clothing from our locale" with jewelry including "bling bling ice ice, grills" and "hoochie hoops."

The party, held Saturday night at the fraternity house, featured a skeleton pirate hanging on a noose.

Black Student Union members protested the party on Monday, saying the appearance of the image and the language on the invitation highlighted racial tensions at Hopkins and the strained relations between the university and the surrounding community.

Protesters held signs showing a historical lynching next to a picture of the fraternity's skeleton.
"We need to educate the student body because apparently some people weren't given much of a proper lesson in the history of our country," said Yasmene Mumby, 20, a junior and BSU member.

Isn't it time to start integrating fraternities and sororities—or do away with them altogether, at least on campuses, and certainly on public university campuses? Must we keep living in the dark ages here?

Previous Comments

ID

108092

Comment

I'm no fan of frats, but if they are to be allowed to exist at all I don't see what they should be forcibly integrated. Don't they tend to voluntarily self-segregate? I don't know much about the Greek system at all, but at UF it looked to me like the members were just choosing to be segregated along black/white/jewish lines. Maybe some other people who were actually in the Greek system in College can weigh in on this.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-31T16:11:50-06:00

ID

108093

Comment

I don't know how they work, either, completely—but it does strike me that (a) if a fraternity is on a private campus and sanctioned in any way, that the college has the right to require it to be integrated, and (b) if a fraternity is any way connected to a *public* college,and especially if it's on public property, it would have to be integrated. In fact, I'm really not sure how a public-college fraternity or sorority could discriminate in the whole membership thing the way they do, race aside. The Of course, they could go off-campus and form little whites-only and blacks-only clubs all they want, although I can't imagine why anyone would want to. I just think it's time to lift *all* the hoods on this segregated fraternity crap. That whole working so hard to get into a club with people just like you is so primitive a concept. And certainly if colleges forced these clubs to be integrated, then you wouldn't have dumba$$, racist crap going on like this mess in Baltimore because these young people's would have a better education in what matters to people not like them.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-31T16:21:58-06:00

ID

108094

Comment

If I were the dean or any fellow black student at Hopkins, I would forgive all of the frat boys if they would simply put on the suits, drive to West or East Baltimore and wear those suits, jewelry, grills, bling/bling and other attire around and thru the row houses for a couple of hours. Since I've been there countless times, and am going again next month, I know the frat boys ain't got the balls to even speed through some of these neghborhoods in their regular clothings. The black student union should rent a bus and offer free rides to and from those neighborhoods. They want need the bus for the return. I'm not advocating violence here. If they run fast enough there won't be any. I'm scared of these neighborhoods too. My fraternity is very intergrated. Hubert Humphrey was a member. I've met many african, african american, whites and latins at fraternity gathering.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-31T16:51:51-06:00

ID

108095

Comment

when that is the crap you see on BET then don't be surprised if people make fun of it. In fact, while we are at it, here is a link of something originally from MAD Magazine:

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-31T17:02:50-06:00

ID

108096

Comment

Well, I'm just too ignorant of how it works to know. As far as I can tell, the whole principle of frats and sororities is to select who you want to be in, based on no other criteria than the preferences of those already in. So if you forcibly integrate them by mandating some sort of quota, then you have to set all sorts of quotas (jewish quota, hispanic quota, ect) and the whole point of selecting who you want in the club would be lost. So, my guess is that if they were forcibly integrated they would just disappear. This is true of the black and jewish fraternities too. But, like I said, I'm speaking from almost complete ignorance here. Maybe Ray could help me understand better how the whole thing works.

Author

GLB

Date

2006-10-31T17:03:22-06:00

ID

108097

Comment

by the way Donna: You are right about the Greek system. Is there really a need for it? If the university wants to lease space to them and let them do their thing that is one thing but is there really a need for those in terms of being associated with the school itself?

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-31T17:04:36-06:00

ID

108098

Comment

Looking back I can't believe I even pledged a fraternity. Two of my friends talked me into it. Both of them quit as soon as the violence started. One came back and pledged under the folks he quit on. Only a rare individual have the balls to do that. He became very successful in life and I'm not surprised. I imagine many fraternities would dissolve rather than be forcibly integrated. Not us though, we did it voluntarily probably some 40 or 50 years ago. The legacies of Dr. King, Thurgood Marshall, Paul Robeson, W. E. Dubois and many more are what compelled me to stick it out through the pledging process that I always thought was mostly mindless, stupid, and without any real purpose. I became the president of the chapter at Tougaloo and stopped most of the stupid stuff I felt was without merit. All the pledgees loved me because I never changed once I got in. I kept the same friends, many of which were in different fraternities. They're still my best friends to this day. I said back then and I say today, we have too many damn problems to create artificial barriers.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-10-31T17:37:24-06:00

ID

108099

Comment

I can't stomach it enough right now to form a thought. That is disturbing. Reminds me of the hazing at Ole Miss when they dropped the student off at Rust College. Or the time the frat brothers dressed as master/slave and took pictures to post on a website. And then how I later learned that a woman, who became my department head, had found the young man at Rust and helped him out before he was found by someone who might hurt him. And then later even, when one of the Holly Springs students went out to speak about the master/slave picture and stated that it is not a representation of white folks as a whole. I could only think, what big hearts and big minds to help someone in such a circumstance and to not hold grudges. And it happens again and again.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T17:44:10-06:00

ID

108100

Comment

Or the time the frat brothers dressed as master/slave and took pictures to post on a website. Ahem. While I can obviously understand why that would be offensive to blacks, let's not forget two facts: (1) the master-slave dynamic is sexually charged for a lot of people; (2) fraternity hazing and rituals are, in many respects, sexually charged. So I'm not surprised that the fraternity chose that motif, and I wouldn't necessarily associate it with racism. (Broken sexuality, maybe.) Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-31T20:42:57-06:00

ID

108101

Comment

Well, I think it's rather common sense to associate a master-slave depiction with racism. I mean, what is racism if not a depiction of a white man's power over a black man? That one's kinda basic. Now, does all this stupid white supremacy have something to do with sexuality and fear of being shown up, or such some idiocy? Very possibly, considering the condition of many of the lynched men's bodies, which is too disgusting for me to even type.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-31T20:46:29-06:00

ID

108102

Comment

Ahem, It included black face and chains. Did you see the picture? Not sexual. Take it from the girl who walked Capital Street in hooker boots with a whip. I know sexually charged from blatent good ol' boy racism.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T20:47:24-06:00

ID

108103

Comment

Well, I think it's rather common sense to associate a master-slave depiction with racism. I mean, what is racism if not a depiction of a white man's power over a black man? That one's kinda basic. I find that view rather simplistic. In my own community (GLBT), the master-slave dynamic is a part of many people's relationships and, in that context, carries no racial weight. The application to single-sex groups of college students should be obvious. It included black face and chains. Did you see the picture? Not sexual. Didn't see the picture -- and based on this description, I don't wish to. Gross. And obviously racist. Thanks for the clarification. Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-31T21:53:40-06:00

ID

108104

Comment

Well, I think you saw a different master-slave dynamic than the one depicted. To each his own. Personally, I don't *ever* dig master-slave dynamics, in personal relationships or otherwise.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-10-31T22:07:43-06:00

ID

108105

Comment

Well, I think you saw a different master-slave dynamic than the one depicted. To each his own. Since I didn't see the picture, I didn't "see" anything. Emily clarified what the picture showed, and I agree that that's obviously racist. See above. Personally, I don't *ever* dig master-slave dynamics, in personal relationships or otherwise. I'm with you there, kiddo. Ick. :-)

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-31T22:16:30-06:00

ID

108106

Comment

Still looking for any of the Ole Miss references, but here's a similar Auburn situation. http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=319 I remembered one of my former students commenting on it, so I know there's a story out there somewhere. He was a leader at his historically black fraternity at the time so his comment was relevent and I remembered being so touched by someone younger than I who could forgive more easily than I could.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T22:31:04-06:00

ID

108107

Comment

Okay, found this with a copy/pasted story from the campus newspaper... "I don't think that all ATOs are racist," Vernon said. "Don't make assumptions." Vernon, who should have been quoted as Rayford as that's his last name, was my former student. Vernon Rayford. I remember going GSSSHHHH then. Anyway, there's a pasted version on this message board: Click here Scroll down to read the full story.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T22:37:31-06:00

ID

108108

Comment

Oh, my bad. The picture was of a cuffed man in black face with a guy picking his teeth with straw holding a gun to his head. My error from the master/slave connotation..but not so much huh? http://www.publicenemy.com/index.php?page=page3&item=47

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T22:48:29-06:00

ID

108109

Comment

Scroll down for Ole Miss picture: http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/afro_am/African_American_Presence/200.html I'm walking away now to not flood y'all with my google search. Halloween in the Hood my ass.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T22:52:00-06:00

ID

108110

Comment

Yeah, (1) nothing master/slave about that, so that explanation doesn't apply AT ALL; (2) what a repulsive picture. Makes me wonder what possesses some people.

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-10-31T22:58:45-06:00

ID

108111

Comment

That's what I remembered from it Tim. Years ago and tried to block it out. It wasn't an explanation...it was what I tried to remember. Between the Ole Miss gun to the head while black man picks cotton and Auburn's KKK with blackfaced man on noose...sorry but the origin to master/slave is what my mind remembered. I remembered hate and passing it to drunk chicks in bunny ears as funny. And I still don't think the master/slave as being sexual applies anywhere AT ALL. Sex without equality just doesn't do it for me, but that's another discussion for another day...or another thread. So we'll have to know that I erred on a memory and followed up with the facts which to me are not all that far from each other. I do think the picture is very master/slave. Who's got the power in that picture? The one on his knees or the one with the gun? And who's got the black face???

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-10-31T23:16:42-06:00

ID

108112

Comment

Frats are worthless, unless you enjoy the barbaric rituals.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-10-31T23:17:45-06:00

ID

108113

Comment

I remember the Rust College incident. That was not good ole boy frat pranks type stuff. That was dangerous for those kids who were tied up naked and left on the campus. Scumbags who did that should have had it done to them without being rescued.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-10-31T23:36:13-06:00

ID

108114

Comment

I also remember the Rust College incident and was sickened by it. Sometimes just when you think the younger generation "gets it" and is willing to work to move past our racist beginnings, something like this happens and it adds a certain credibility to assertions about racism being a disease. I remember at State there were 2 white fraternities that always got my "spider-sense" tingling, because they carried themselves in such a manner that I always felt if any racist incidents ever happened on Fraterity Row these two would be right in the middle of it. My perception of them changed slightly when I became study partners with a member of one of these frats and realized that not all of them were bad. As far as the Greek system, I'm personally not a "joiner" so being in a frat didn't appeal to me (though I admit almost pledging Ray's frat my junior year) but I doubt that any serious attempt to fully desegregate the Greek organizations will ever happen. Nor do I believe that they should. I know of a few historically white fraternities that have black members, but most of them are up North or out West. I'm not aware of any historically white Greeks orgs in Miss that are integrated, but I recall seeing a handful of whites in historically black Greek orgs in Miss and La over the years.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2006-11-01T09:34:41-06:00

ID

108115

Comment

Can someone clue me in on what happened at Rust? I must have been in Texas and missed it. I understand why people question the needs of fraternities. They need to serve a meritorious purpose, not just exist for partying and the use of drugs and alcohol. During my college years at Tougaloo my fraternity gave a scholarship to a promising student who happened to be poor or underpriviledged, and a placard to the student with the highest grade point average every year. Two of the winners were Dr. Blanche Lowery Battle, a Tougaloo and Harvard Medical School graduate. She's now practicing anesthesia in Tucson Arizona. She had the highest grades one year. Another winner was Dr. Mavis Williams (last named changed due to marriage). She is a Tougaloo and Brown Medical School Graduate. She's a practicing dermatologist in Los Angeles, California. She was smart but needed financial help. She was shocked when I called her name for the scholarship and couldn't stop smiling and hugging me. To this day, she smiles and hugs me whenever she sees me. Nationally, we're raising money for a Martin Luther King Memorial at the Capital Mall in Washington, DC. We need 100,000,000.00, and have raised half of the money thus far. I hope we make it a reality some day. Harry Johnson, one of my ex-coworkers in Houston, is heading up the project.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T10:22:31-06:00

ID

108116

Comment

Ray: an ole miss frat took a pledge and another member, stripped them, tied them up, painted racial slurs all over their bodies, and dropped them off at Rust College in the middle of the school late at night. It was disgusting and very dangerous. The two guys tied up were white and the frat was white.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-11-01T11:02:35-06:00

ID

108117

Comment

You have to set limits on what you're willing do to become a member. I was told to jump from a window one night. I told them I wasn't doing jack and one or two of the ones who tried to throw me would have hell to pay. They backed down and left me the hell along on that tip. I was lucky though. The chapter made the error of letting me know I was the catch of my line, and they gave me leeway others couldn't get. Those frat pledgees were dumb and stupid to tolerate that. At least they were taken there at night when it was relatively safe for them. As to BET. Bob Johnson is a sorry no good bastards. He never had any real respect for us. I regret Tavis Smiley didn't do a better job cursing him out when he was fired. Bob Johnson got to be a billionaire screwing black folks. I hope I live long enough to witness his doom or death. Kingfish, my friend, we see Rockers or Rock bands (and other things)and watch their lifestyles get magnified, even glorified, but we don't throw frat parties emulating and casing aspersions about them or the white race. Those frat boys at Hopkins deserve all the blame for this, not merely some of it.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T11:26:24-06:00

ID

108118

Comment

Ray: it wasn't safe for them. WHen the cops got there they were surrounded by a crowd. Also, you are assuming they let themselves be bound. From what I recall, such was not the case.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-11-01T11:35:40-06:00

ID

108119

Comment

Fish, every single time I wasn't in complete control, I was ready to fight in a jackrabbit second. Generally, I aint pulling my clothes off for no one but me and a woman. Any man other than a doctor or nurse will have great problems with me in this regard. They had to consent by silence, acquiesence or some manner. I simply don play the gagging, bounding, handcuffing, de-clothing kind of sh1t. I wasn't going to do that. Also our whole line barely stood for being seperated. We would join hands and refused to be separated if necessary.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T11:49:26-06:00

ID

108120

Comment

I meant don't instead of don.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T11:50:21-06:00

ID

108121

Comment

One more thing. I'm not saying the frat members were right for doing that. They were very wrong. I would have recommended throwing them out of the fraternity for it. The pledgees had to have low self-esteem or questionable worth to allow themselves to get placed in a situation like this. Unless they knocked me out first, I wasn't going for this.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T11:59:48-06:00

ID

108122

Comment

Finally, my reference to the frat boys going into the black neighborhoods of Baltimore wearing the pimp attire involved already members, not helpless and dumb pledgees. And I wanted it to be done voluntarily, not forced. It was a joke anyway. Bad joke.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T12:03:43-06:00

ID

108123

Comment

I hate the silence of those who are at the parties, see it happening and laugh at the "joke". Just as guilty to me.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-11-01T12:11:03-06:00

ID

108124

Comment

I never participated in any violence or conduct that wasn't constructive. We wern't even allowed to do nasty dances or step shows. My chapter did do a nasty or vulgar show at Milsaps once and was booed terribly. I didn't participate and had to explain what happened 2 days later to the pressident and dean. I lied and said I didn't participate and wasn't aware of it. I agree with Emily. It is wrong to not step in and stop inappropriate actions. Other than the step show at Milsaps, my one other indiscretion involved my plans to participate in a beatdown of some pledgees for performing poorly at a stepshow. Fortunately, a pledgee who is now a local medical doctor here in Jackson recognized that they had finally made me mad too. So, he ran away and reported all of us to the Dean. I thank God that he did that because I certainly would have participated that one fateful night. The problem with sanctioning or participating in this kind of behavior is that somebody always goes too far. Our chapter advisor had only one question for me and it was "Ray Charles were you and Percy going to participate." I said yes and he immediately quit leaving us without an advisor and unable to pledge others before getting another advisor.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T12:42:28-06:00

ID

108125

Comment

Ray: If I remember from the CL stories at the time, they weren't willing participants. Its hard to fight 100 guys that are drunk or a little inebriated. IF it was willing, and I don't think it was, I bet they did it for a frat prank in the frat house and didn't tell them what they were really up to. Once the guys are tied up, they are pretty much at their mercy. However, I don't think the two youths were willing from what I recall. It received heavy press coverage here at the time.

Author

Kingfish

Date

2006-11-01T13:08:21-06:00

ID

108126

Comment

Here. Start at page 17 although the entire document is very engaging. https://drum.umd.edu/dspace/bitstream/1903/3231/1/umi-umd-3057.pdf

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-11-01T13:48:42-06:00

ID

108127

Comment

Thanks Emily. I copied the whole thing for reading. I once dreamed I was facing a great judgment and I had to choose Ole Miss or Hell. I choose Hell and still wounded up at Ole Miss. I don't blame Cleve McDowell for carrying a gun before he was thrown out of there.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T14:32:43-06:00

ID

108128

Comment

Ray, I'm so conflicted with Ole Miss. I love it; I hate it. I love Oxford. Seriously. It's my heart. But I've re-evaluated that adoration the more I learn. I remember having a student in Holly Springs (where I taught while I lived there) who was going to Ole Miss to change the flag. I adored their passion. The shared love/hate. I love it as a writer. It's a great place for an artist. I thrived in the ghosts of Wille Morris, Larry Brown, Faulkner...and he chance at seeing Barry Hannah. I can seriously get chills thinking of the literary value. I hate the racist past and present. I hate the mysogyny. But Oxford is God's Country to me in some ways. And I'm not even an alum.

Author

emilyb

Date

2006-11-01T14:40:24-06:00

ID

108129

Comment

I partly understand the great emotions it evokes in so many people. There is some good to go along with much bad still existing. What I have never been able to understand is why a black athlete would go there and play ball while the most despicable trash the world over waves a rebel flag. I have nearly lost some friendships over this. I implored them to not let their boys go over there. That school doesn't have a single thing other schools doesn't have more of. If our athletes wouldn't go there that flag and other vestiges of racism would have long been gone. You see, they want to hold on to the past but still compete with the best and brightest. This ain't going to happen. The president is a good man though. The one before him was too. I always pull for Auburn and others to beat them to a pulp. I didn't like Tuberville until he told them what time it was and left. This is all I will say about them for now.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T15:34:05-06:00

ID

108130

Comment

I meant schools don't. I don't want to make any errors while talking about this school. They might say I should have gone there. I need to pay more attention. I don't mind my purposeful errors like ain't.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T15:38:39-06:00

ID

108131

Comment

Now I'm hearing the school has suspended the frat boys. I'm against the suspensions. Those boys need to be in school, and with sensitivity classes to boot. I knew I had a better plan - dropping them off where they could really practice their craft.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-01T17:23:19-06:00

ID

108132

Comment

That's what I remembered from it Tim. Years ago and tried to block it out. It wasn't an explanation...it was what I tried to remember. My explanation, not yours. :-) I didn't mean to attribute the explanation to you. It was just based on what you were remembering. I'm sorry that wasn't clear. And I still don't think the master/slave as being sexual applies anywhere AT ALL. Sex without equality just doesn't do it for me, but that's another discussion for another day...or another thread. I'll buy your second statement there, but not your first. Other people's sexuality and sexual practices aren't within my control, and should not be. I personally find that kind of sex repulsive, but I respect the fact that some people like to do it that way. I'm not aware of any historically white Greeks orgs in Miss that are integrated, but I recall seeing a handful of whites in historically black Greek orgs in Miss and La over the years. IINM, Pi Kappa Alpha at Millsaps pledged at least a couple of black men some years back (as in, sometime in the mid-1990s, maybe? I don't remember exactly). I don't know whether they have any black members now, though. Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-11-01T19:07:58-06:00

ID

108133

Comment

Emily that 640 plus document you attached is quite interesting and enlightening. I was up late last night reading it. I plan to read it all. Somehow I missed all the pictures of the white frat boys darkening their faces and pretending to be black, masters, or KKK members. All of this stuff is just good fun to me. I think they're just trying to break down unjustified sensitivities in the black community. They're going about it wrong though. You can't do this marvelous work hiding in the frat houses of America. What they should do is take these loving and inspiring acts on the road to some of the most populated black regions of the country for a test drive or walk by. Black folks have always been open and receptive to good ideas and obvious love from well-intended white people. I'd be to happy to help out in this regard any way I can. I'm serious.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-11-02T09:51:24-06:00

ID

108134

Comment

Speaking of ignorant, racist frat boy antics, has anyone heard about the lawsuit against the movie 'Borat' by a group of frat boys who were featured in the film while drunk and apparently made racist and sexist comments on camera? The lawsuit claims that in October 2005, a production crew took the students to a bar to drink and "loosen up" before participating in what they were told would be a documentary to be shown outside of the United States. "They were induced to agree to participate and were told the name of the fraternity and the name of their school wouldn't be used," said the plaintiffs' attorney, Olivier Taillieu. "They were put into an RV and were made to believe they were picking up Borat the hitchhiker." After a bout of heavy drinking, the plaintiffs signed a release form they were told "had something to do with reliability issues with being in the RV," Taillieu said. The film "made plaintiffs the object of ridicule, humiliation, mental anguish and emotional and physical distress, loss of reputation, goodwill and standing in the community". I haven't seen the film, nor do I plan to, so I can't comment on the exact nature of the scenes, but I have some online friends who saw the movie and noted how orchastrated the scene was, and how their statements were so typical of Southern white neo-racists. Although I understand that there may be grounds for lawsuits based on how releases were presented and the film's intent misrepresented, I'm finding it difficult to feel sorry for these guys. If you're going to make bigoted, ridiculous comments, you have to be prepared to stand behind them or admit that you were wrong in saying them, not just blame the producers for encouraging you to drink and "lose control" of your judgement.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2006-11-10T12:51:11-06:00