Ellington

After weeks of sending abortion-rights supporters into a furious tizzy, a bill to ban the procedure in Mississippi flittered away into impotence as it passed its March 27 deadline for legislation in the regular session Monday. The bill, which might have banned all abortions except in cases of rape or incest, or to protect the life of the mother, fell to death with a frustrated shake of the head and a few dark, smoldering looks toward Rep. Steve Holland, the Plantersville Democrat who angered Democrats and Republicans alike by introducing the bill.

The abortion ban originally came hurling out of the House weeks ago when Holland found a Senate Bill on his Public Health Committee desk that he called "another Republican scheme to peck pro-choice to death." That earlier version of the Senate bill, authored by Sen. Alan Nunnelee, R-Tupelo, sought to force any patient seeking an abortion to see a sonogram of the developing infant and to hear the fetus' heartbeat.

Holland said he took personal offense at the bill, which joins a host of other state restrictions such as a mandatory waiting time, parental notification and informed-consent laws seeking to make abortion as difficult as possible without risking court intervention by banning it outright.

"I looked at this thing and just said to hell with it. It's time for this issue to be voted on," Holland said earlier this month. Holland struck the sonogram and heartbeat language from the bill and replaced it with a bill outlawing abortion outright—angering abortion-rights supporters who say that Holland was playing political games instead of leading a serious debate on an issue vital to the rights of Mississippians.

"It's either a scheme to snatch a political weapon away from Republicans, or a stupid show in how to snatch away a weapon while shooting yourself in the foot with it," said Daniel Kasem, a Jacksonian who was flabbergasted by Holland's bill. Republicans, though, were the ones sputtering with anger Monday night. In the hour leading up to the bill deadline, Holland—accompanied by Rep. Bobby Moak, D-Bogue Chitto, and a reporter and an intern from the Jackson Free Press—went to dinner at C.S.' Deli. There he fed on fried chicken and pork chops, telling stories about his career as an undertaker, and killing time he might have spent in conference negotiating and arguing with Republicans over the bill's language.

By the time Holland paid his check and returned to the Capitol and leisurely presented his most recent version of the bill to Senate conferees, House and Senate health committee members had only 12 minutes left to reach a consensus on the conference report before sending it out to the House and Senate for approval. Minutes after conferees started reading through the report, Holland said, "You've got five minutes to sign your signatures."

Senate Public Health Committee Chairman Nunnelee said he had not seen the conference report prior to the meeting and was angry that the House alteration of SB 2922 removed the teeth from a proposed abortion ban.

"The language in this bill basically says that this law will take effect when the United States Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade," Holland said.

Nunnelee, shaken and furious, said the meeting was not begun in good faith.

"I sat in here for an hour and a half. After he set the appointment, he walks in 12 minutes before the deadline with a very complex piece of legislation. It's only two sections, but they are two very important sections," Nunnelee said.

Sections 5 and 6 were the bill killers for Nunnelee, because they stated that the abortion ban would kick in only when the Mississippi Attorney General "determines that the U.S. Supreme Court has overruled the decision of Roe v. Wade."

Moak, a Public Health and Human Services Committee member, argued that the Legislature should not be in the job of second-guessing the Supreme Court, and said the dubious Sections 5 and 6 were added only after consultation with National Right to Life, a group formed to end abortion in the U.S.

A terse back and forth ensued between House and the Senate committee members.

"I've still got questions," Nunnelee said.

"Well you've got five minutes to ask them," Holland replied.

"I can't help it if you show up 12 minutes before deadline," Nunnelee said.

"Well, the process has been established since 1817," Holland mumbled back.

Senate Public Health and Welfare committee member Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith, D-Brookhaven, was also outraged.

"When was this printed?" she demanded.

"About 45 minutes to an hour ago," Holland said. "Look, you make it what you want to make it, OK? The House of Representatives … has given you a fair bill on abortion effective when Roe v. Wade is overturned. That's a position that we will not retreat from, and we will not compromise."

Republicans in Mississippi have repeatedly used support of abortion rights as a weapon against Democratic opponents, especially in competition for conservative voters.

Holland said he sought to disarm pro-life Republicans in upcoming elections by throwing them an abortion ban bill that they would be forced to duck.

Still, ACLU of Mississippi Executive Director Nsombi Lambright said she did not appreciate Holland's method, even though she was glad the bill was dead.

"I just hate that we wasted this much tax money on a very stupid bill," Lambright said.

Jackson resident Barry Shaw said he was bitter that Mississippi had thrown away the privilege of being one of the first states in the nation to outlaw "the murder of babies."

"We almost had it," Shaw said. "We were closer than we've ever been since 1973, but this won't be the last year. I promise you.

"It's not over."

Previous Comments

ID

65723

Comment

We've are attempting to confirm if the anti's have had it re-introduce the bill...and this is what's been confirmed.... It has been voted and passed by both chambers to extend the deadline to 'discuss it' and several other bills. The same members will be handeling it. Holland has stated that he will not be attending the meeting scheduled for sometime late tomorrow afternoon...But we need folks to come to the capitol. WE MUST SHOW THEM THAT WE ARE NOT PLAYING WITH THEM....THIS BAN IS NOT HAPPENING!!!!!

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-28T21:39:01-06:00

ID

65724

Comment

OK, someone who understands the Leg better than me explain to us what can happen now. Is there any way they can get around Holland on this? OR, is it likely that the Republicans are forcing the cards onto the table here -- i.e. forcing the Democrats who played the game to reveal where they really stand? I don't believe for a minute that most of the Repub lawmakers actually *want* a complete and unconstitutional abortion ban, but they want the base to think they do, and they sure don't want Steve Holland to outfox them on this, and then try to use it against them during elections. So, my early guess is that they are trying to force the Dems to really say where they stand on the issue. And if that's the case, I may be with the Repubs on this one. That's what should have happened in the first place: honesty. Friggin' games.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-28T21:50:28-06:00

ID

65725

Comment

Adam just talked to Rep. Steve Holland, who says that Alan Nunnelee requires Holland to meet with him in order to get the bill put back out for a vote. Holland says he "is through with it," and does not plan to confer. In fact, he said, "I plan to sit back on my big ass and let it die."

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-28T21:59:31-06:00

ID

65726

Comment

THIS BAN AINT HAPPENING.......ALL OF THE REAL ACTIVISTS, PLEASE STAND UP!!!!! WE CAN DO THIS. MS PRO-CHOICE ACTIVISTS NEED TO MOUNT UP!!!!!

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-28T22:00:24-06:00

ID

65727

Comment

Thank you, JFP, for well-written, thorough coverage of the issue. Deirdra Harris Glover Webmaster prochoicemississippi.org

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-28T22:32:43-06:00

ID

65728

Comment

Damn I love Steve Holland (D, Plantersville). He's gutted their bill and they can either vote for a bill that NO GOP'er had anything to do with creating or passing, OR they could vote against it. some found it upsetting, but the bill's language is moot lest the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade...and even then the GOP couldn't take any credit. well, the GOP'ers aren't happy about this. I mean, this is THEIR little pet drum to beat. i don't recall anything i've read in months that made me feel happier than this article. I LOVE steve Holland and i LOVE watching these jackasses squirm over the fact he's stealing their pander point!

Author

jp!

Date

2006-03-29T00:52:39-06:00

ID

65729

Comment

Just pay attention to these 'new developments'......

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-29T10:42:54-06:00

ID

65730

Comment

I met Moak last night at Julep. He was with a "reporter type". ;) I now feel that I did not use my time with him wisely.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-29T12:24:23-06:00

ID

65731

Comment

Steve Holland is a complete joke and he is making a mockery of the system. From what I have read, he is also about as classy as a member of the Jerry Springer audience. Anyone who uses deceit as a method should be removed from office. Bitterness and crude spite has no place in public office, and anyone aligning themselves with Holland on this one is depraved. There's nothing true or good in it, but what can you expect from those who kill for conveinience. Pro-Lifers should assemble and not run or hide from these assinign hatemongers. Rally at the capitol and show them what the majority of Mississippians really want... the right for all people to have a chance to live, in spite of their parents irresponsibility. THIS IS NOT OVER

Author

ReadsomeKierkegaard

Date

2006-03-29T14:34:28-06:00

ID

65732

Comment

Kill for convenience? Please. You're wearing out your welcome fast here.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-29T14:53:19-06:00

ID

65733

Comment

National NOW vp of action, Melody Drnach and VP of membership, Latifa Lyles will be in Jackson Sunday, April 2, 2006 to meet and greet MS pro-choice feminst/ activists. We are meeting for lunch at Keifers @ 1:30. Let me know if you want to join us so I can adjust the seating arrangments.

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-29T22:36:49-06:00

ID

65734

Comment

How "tolerant" of you miss ladd.

Author

ReadsomeKierkegaard

Date

2006-03-30T17:24:42-06:00

ID

65735

Comment

How "kierkegaard" of you, Mr. Reak.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-30T17:35:50-06:00

ID

65736

Comment

Thanks Mr. Holland is an example of the dangers of Formaldehyde and too many totties. I don't mind if he sits on his "fat A$$," but does he have to do it at taxpayer's expense?

Author

ReadsomeKierkegaard

Date

2006-03-30T17:46:32-06:00

ID

65737

Comment

What are the possible outcomes of this Revival? Is Holland just going to show up and leave again?

Author

ReadsomeKierkegaard

Date

2006-03-30T17:49:06-06:00

ID

65738

Comment

"Bitterness and crude spite has no place in public office..." What? What country have you been living in since 2001, ReadsomeKierkegaard? "After all, [Saddam] tried to kill my dad..."

Author

Scott Albert Johnson

Date

2006-03-30T18:02:26-06:00

ID

65739

Comment

Unless he's lying, yes. I summarize the JFP a little bit here. (Increasingly finding that the JFP and the Associated Press are the only two consistently useful sources on the Mississippi abortion ban.) Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-03-30T18:04:18-06:00

ID

65740

Comment

There's nothing true or good in it, but what can you expect from those who kill for conveinience. Pro-Lifers should assemble and not run or hide from these assinign hatemongers. Rally at the capitol and show them what the majority of Mississippians really want... the right for all people to have a chance to live, in spite of their parents irresponsibility. Oh Christ, are you serious? I'm too old for this sh!t. I'll tell you like I tell every other man that hates women...Shut up. I'm seriously just tired of it.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-30T22:39:04-06:00

ID

65741

Comment

I missed Mr. Kierkegaard's post the first time around, but I do have to wonder what kind of mind it is that can spell "Kierkegaard" correctly but misspell "asinine" as "assinign." I get the distinct feeling that this person has in fact read very little Kierkegaard, but reading his post does reminds me of something ol' Søren himself once said: Now if possibility outruns necessity, the self runs away from itself, so that it has no necessity whereto it is bound to return -- then this is the despair of possibility. The self becomes an abstract possibility which tries itself out with floundering in the possible, but does not budge from the spot, nor get to any spot, for precisely the necessary is the spot; to become oneself is precisely a movement at the spot. To become is a movement from the spot, but to become oneself is a movement at the spot. Possibility then appears to the self ever greater and greater, more and more things become possible, because nothing becomes actual. At last it is as if everything were possible -- but this is precisely when the abyss has swallowed up the self. Every little possibility even would require some time to become actuality. But finally the time which should be available for actuality becomes shorter and shorter, everything becomes more and more instantaneous. Possibility becomes more and more intense -- but only in the sense of possibility, not in the sense of actuality; for in the sense of actuality the meaning of intensity is that at least something of that which is possible becomes actual. At the instant something appears possible, and then a new possibility makes its appearance, at last this phantasmagoria moves so rapidly that it is as if everything were possible -- and this is precisely the last moment, when the individual becomes for himself a mirage. Yeah. Whenever that happens, I just take a couple of Tylenol and lie down. Try it, Readmore. It's much more productive than calling women sluts. Or at least it's a whale of a lot less assinign. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-03-30T22:52:25-06:00

ID

65742

Comment

Or at least it's a whale of a lot less assinign. GMBO (Giggling my butt off)

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-30T22:56:29-06:00

ID

65743

Comment

BTW, y'all hurry and do what you have to do. This troll is here until the break of dawn; then it's bedtime for bonzo. Ready, set, go.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-30T22:57:54-06:00

ID

65744

Comment

The only thing I truly have to say...is that if I was going to "murder for convienece" I'd start with the assinign dumbasses. We need to lose some dead weight.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-30T23:19:29-06:00

ID

65745

Comment

From what various pro-choice activists have heard (in person and over the phone), the House reps have absolutely no plans to go back into conference.

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-30T23:37:18-06:00

ID

65746

Comment

Don't you just hate it when you are messing around and someone shows up with something important to say? Thank you, Ms Glover. You have just centered the smart-mouthed little girl. Soren, go away, we have more important things to do. But, I will, like, totally watch Fresh Prince reruns with you if you are free on Thursdays...around 2:13.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-30T23:41:11-06:00

ID

65747

Comment

I promise I didn't mean to spoil your fun, Ali, but I thought I'd better share the information that has been making my day less stressful Holland also said the deadline for the ban is Friday when everyone leaves, that he absolutely will not sign anything that is not the conference report that he put forth.

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-30T23:51:27-06:00

ID

65748

Comment

Ms. Glover. I think I love you. I love anything that makes your day less stressful. You are one cool woman. :) Will you sign my boob? You are a total rock star in my world.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-30T23:52:49-06:00

ID

65749

Comment

I think there's an unspoken "no boob-signing" clause in my marriage covenant (my husband is the dude in the picture up top) but I appreciate the love, the coolness and the rock star sentiment. To continue in a deprecatory manner, if you heard me play bass, thought, you'd totally nix the rock star comment. Feel free to register for the site, and we'll do our very best to keep you well-informed on this and other news gems, though.

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-31T00:00:22-06:00

ID

65750

Comment

I'm there. And damn the "no boob" signing clause. ;)

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-03-31T00:14:06-06:00

ID

65751

Comment

Is it possible that maybe Mr. Holland is a bit smarter than the JFP and the pro-choice crowd has been giving him credit for? What someone says publicly is not always what one truly intends. It could be that this humiliation of the pro-life forces was what he intended all along. Not saying this is definitely the case... just a hypothesis...

Author

Scott Albert Johnson

Date

2006-03-31T11:26:51-06:00

ID

65752

Comment

Scott-those of us in the pro-choice community do not assume anything...So many officials 'claim' to be pro-choice, they admit it to us behind closed doors, but when we needed a true pro-choice vote, they weren't willing. Although Holland is on point with many issues that I hold in high regard, I have NEVER witnessed him proclaiming he was pro-choice! Example: Tuck used to be a NOW member who was vocal about being pro-choice. Then she got elected Lt. Gv. never supported choice activists during the time when anti legislation was brought up. The Pro-Choice community no longer trusts/believes ANY official who claims to be on our side until AFTER they publicly speak/act on it. NOT AROUND IT!!! Holland may be for choice..he may be smarter. but the climate in MS is too dangerous to be playing with women's lives regarding reproductive health care. In the pass, we women have lost and are no longer going to stand by and allow legislators-especially men, create policy that will result in women becoming incubators.

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T11:49:17-06:00

ID

65753

Comment

JANOW: I hear ya. It was just a thought. I would never presume to really understand how our lawmakers' minds work. :)

Author

Scott Albert Johnson

Date

2006-03-31T12:20:21-06:00

ID

65754

Comment

Is it possible that maybe Mr. Holland is a bit smarter than the JFP and the pro-choice crowd has been giving him credit for? It's not a question of whether Rep. Holland is playing a "smart" political game. In a way, he is. We know what he's doing; it's not like he's hidden, at least to people in Jackson paying attention. My problem has always been whether that game is honest or truly helpful to the state. And, without question, it is cowardly, and a way to skip over the real debate, which has to happen at some point. What someone says publicly is not always what one truly intends. Of course not. Everyone knows here that Holland's "public" move to ban abortion is not what he intends. We can stipulate that part. And I couldn't agree with NOW any more on this statement: but the climate in MS is too dangerous to be playing with women's lives regarding reproductive health care. Amen, sister.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-03-31T12:49:42-06:00

ID

65755

Comment

in a related question, are there any other medical procedures (other than abortion) that are banned in some states and allowed in others? i'm asking in light of what might be the rule of law if Roe v. Wade were overturned.

Author

jp!

Date

2006-03-31T12:56:52-06:00

ID

65756

Comment

Well, affluent women have been known to have 'd&c's' -fanicier term for abortion, which is defined as the process of terminating a pregnacy. Poor women have abortions. The attempts to strike Roe is paramount to the safety to poor women. many people refuse to admit that this is a class issue, affecting the lives of the poor. Rich women will continue to have d&c's performed by their famliy doctor. No, there is no other 'procedure'-only the dangerous methods in conducting them that will follow....

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T13:13:43-06:00

ID

65757

Comment

actually, i didn't mean 'procedure' as in an alternative to abortion. i meant 'are there any general medical treatments, which may require a surgical procedure, that are forbidden in some states but not others?'

Author

jp!

Date

2006-03-31T13:23:44-06:00

ID

65758

Comment

I don't care how or who kills the abortion bill. I just want it killed, dead, kaput. BTW am I the only pro-choice physician in Mississippi? Or just the only one who'll admit it? HDMatthias, MD

Author

HDMatthias, MD

Date

2006-03-31T14:57:29-06:00

ID

65759

Comment

You know, I'd be interested in reading more about local health care providers and their perspectives on the issue... HINT HINT

Author

kaust

Date

2006-03-31T15:13:25-06:00

ID

65760

Comment

HD-you may be the ONLY one besides Dr. Booker, our champion at the JWHC. I thank the Goddess for you both... Knol, r u attending the scheduled lunch on Sunday???? It would not be a success without you 2!

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T15:27:45-06:00

ID

65761

Comment

M, I'm going to try but can't make promises... Am trying to settle about three projects and am feeling the burn!

Author

kaust

Date

2006-03-31T15:29:20-06:00

ID

65762

Comment

I feel you!!! We have a great crowd. We will have a table at the concert on the 14th. JANOW is having a meeting on the 15th at Eudora in the community room @10:00....

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T15:54:18-06:00

ID

65763

Comment

Just in: called Moak's office. They've adjourned and gone home with no resolution. This gives us a few days to rest, and then we need to start planning strategy for next year's session.

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-31T17:15:59-06:00

ID

65764

Comment

I am so proud that I am involved with such great activists. Because of you all, our movement is becoming stronger daily......

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T17:25:51-06:00

ID

65765

Comment

As much hell as these last few weeks have been, I am so glad to have met everyone, and look forward to putting together a group resource for us all.

Author

Deirdra Harris Glover

Date

2006-03-31T17:27:48-06:00

ID

65766

Comment

I've been a feminist and pro-choice physician for 25 years. However, I'm a Yankee feminist(bitch) who immigrated to Jackson. It's been "unusual." I have never met a physician, other than Helen Barnes, MD who was pro-choice. HDMatthias, MD

Author

HDMatthias, MD

Date

2006-03-31T17:41:56-06:00

ID

65767

Comment

OMG, how could I not mention Dr. Barnes.....There is another...he's a yankee also....

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T18:20:43-06:00

ID

65768

Comment

Dr. Barnes is a SHE. HDMatthias, MD

Author

HDMatthias, MD

Date

2006-03-31T18:27:21-06:00

ID

65769

Comment

I KNOW that Dr. Barnes is a women. I was thinking of another Doc that I know. HE is the he that I mentioned...

Author

Jackson Area NOW

Date

2006-03-31T21:00:50-06:00

ID

65770

Comment

I'm not for Abortion, but then I know good and well mischief like this "ban" is a waste of time. Holland is playing to his voters, keeping them in line, probably. He knows it'll get shot down by the Fifth in New Orleans, then laughed at by the Supremes. It'll end up wasting time and money we don't have in Mississippi.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-04-01T14:08:44-06:00

ID

65771

Comment

And most pro-life organizations seem to agree with you, dude. I don't know of that many people on either side of the aisle who are excited about this legislation, except for sellout Democrats who thought they could "take this issue away from the Republicans." Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-01T15:28:44-06:00

ID

65772

Comment

Ok I guess I will weigh in. As a God fearing Christian and mother of a 1 year old I fundamentally and personally believe that abortion is murder. When I look at the 10 week sonogram picture of my son and read my bible I know life begins at conception. I say all of this to say I am one of those hipocritical Christians that is pro-choice politically. I just have a problem with right wing Conservatives who are for conveniece pro-life. How is an abortion any different when conception comes from a drucken night at the bar or from a sexual crime. Conception is conception. If you are truely pro-life than don't provide for outs for cases of rape, incest, or for the mother's life. Don't support stem cell research when you or someone you love get a life threaten illness. I say all this to say, this is a sticky issues that is never going to go away and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Author

badmamajamma

Date

2006-04-04T15:54:45-06:00

ID

65773

Comment

Did I miss a story, or is today the first time The Clarion-Ledger actually reported/showed that they understand that Holland's abortion bill was a political stunt as we've been reporting for weeks?!? Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-04-06T11:56:49-06:00

ID

65774

Comment

Just found this posting about me on some "pro-life" Web site. It's rather astounding in its inaccuracy. First it, it has me interviewing Steve Holland about his abortion bill -- which I didn't do; reporter Adam Lynch did -- and then it refers to me as "anti-life." What ignorant yucks. No wonder it was so easy for Holland to pull his stupid stunt on these people.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-04-09T12:10:58-06:00

ID

65775

Comment

Mr. Head, I didn't call women sluts, in fact, I believe they are the Crown of God's Creation, but that doesn't mean they all act like they agree with me. As for Ali, you are getting pretty old, much too old to be as sophomoric as your are...all boobs, rock stars, and libertation. You read a lot of Rolling Stone, don't you. Kierkegaard(the actual philosopher, not the "dead wieght" Ali speaks of. Does that mean you're for euthanasia also?-) once said that the man(or woman) who is farthest away from salvation(in a philosophical sense) is the one who is in despair and not aware of it.(paraphrased) Ali springs to mind immediately. It amazes me how SOME women can be so loose with their bodies when functioning for pleasure and at the same time such dictators when they function as life-givers. Something is definitley wrong there. I would think a woman would rather die as a mother than live knowing she killed her child. As a man, I can never really relate, but seems to be fundamentaly about humanitarianism, not gender..(A person misspells a word, and the hyenas attack, unless you are named Ray.) Thom, I have serious trouble with a man writing a guide to the Bible who quotes from Athiest, Elitist, Fascist such as Douglas Adams, and who also misreads key passages in the scriptures concerning the sanctity of life and justice.)

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T16:17:57-06:00

ID

65776

Comment

Donna writes: Just found this posting about me on some "pro-life" Web site. It's rather astounding in its inaccuracy. First it, it has me interviewing Steve Holland about his abortion bill -- which I didn't do; reporter Adam Lynch did -- and then it refers to me as "anti-life." Actually, it's even better than that: The author plagiarized from one of my About.com pages on the Mississippi abortion bill, then edited it to add the "anti-life" comment. The New York Times Company tends to frown on this sort of thing, so I'd say the page in question probably won't be up for very long. You had reported the Holland quote to me, so I assumed it was you and not Adam who had originally taken it down. I'll make the correction as soon as we get this little copyright violation problem solved. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T16:30:04-06:00

ID

65777

Comment

OEParker writes: s for Ali, you are getting pretty old, much too old to be as sophomoric as your are...all boobs, rock stars, and libertation. Yeah, I'm sure Ali hangs on every word you say, dude. Seriously: What the HELL makes you think she gives a damn what you say about... Oh, sorry. I forgot. Kierkegaard(the actual philosopher, not the "dead wieght" Ali speaks of. Does that mean you're for euthanasia also?-) once said that the man(or woman) who is farthest away from salvation(in a philosophical sense) is the one who is in despair and not aware of it.(paraphrased) Ali springs to mind immediately. Again, you can spell "Kierkegaard" but you can't spell "weight." What the hell? As a man, I can never really relate, Hallelujah! First comment you made in the entire post that makes any real sense to me. Yes, as a man you can't ever really relate. So stop acting as if you can. Thom, I have serious trouble with a man writing a guide to the Bible who quotes from Athiest, Elitist, Fascist such as Douglas Adams, I have a mild problem with a man criticizing a guide to the Bible that he hasn't bothered to read yet. Buy a copy, dude; it's friggin' $8.80 on Amazon. Then you're entitled to make all the criticisms you like of it. Douglas Adams was certainly an atheist and arguably an elitist, but he was no fascist. He was a fairly mainstream British social liberal with a strong interest in environmental issues. And a damn good man, by all accounts. He will be missed. I have no reservations about quoting atheists. Some of my oldest and dearest friends are atheists, the About.com Guide to Atheism has been a wonderful mentor to me as I've taken on my own site on that forum, and, hell, I just edited a collection of Carl Sagan interviews for the University Press of Mississippi. Oh, and I'm probably stlll a dues-paying member of the American Humanist Association, if you're keeping track of such things. and who also misreads key passages in the scriptures concerning the sanctity of life and justice.) (a) I challenge you to name these passages, and to (b) Consider the possibility that I don't necessarily agree with everything that's in the Bible. If Que Publishing wanted a religious guide, I have many friends who are clergy with graduate research degrees who would do an outstanding job--but they wanted a broad and non-sectarian guide for laypersons that's more informative than inspirational, and that's what I delivered. And it rocks. The Bible does, too. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any corpus of ancient Near/Middle Eastern literature that I like better. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T16:43:31-06:00

ID

65778

Comment

"forum" --> "network." But everyone knows that. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T16:44:51-06:00

ID

65779

Comment

Donna: Please delete the post three steps above from me about "plagiarism." The Covenant News cut-and-paste job is a copyright violation, but I'm at least credited on the clickable page, so it's not plagiarism. It still needs to be taken offline, though. An excerpt and a link would have been fine, but copying the whole blooming post was uncalled for. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T16:48:10-06:00

ID

65780

Comment

Ahhh, the true Tom comes out. I don't care whether Ali hangs or not, this is a forum, where a conversation is going on. You're really hung up on the spelling thing, well sorry, but I don't have the editiorial flair you demand. This is a casual post, where things like "friggin," OMG and such are tolerated, but I lapse the "I before E rule" and you have a conniption. Are you just looking to be abrasive? As for your "guide" there is a huge argument to be made about separating the "sacred" from the "text." Why would laymen want a watered down Bible? I think you overestimate yourself. Douglas Adams, in the back of one addition of his Hitchhiker's series, said in an interview something to the effect that all the Theists he had ever met were stupid, uneducated people while all the Atheists were scientists and doctors. Adams is a Fascist. Here you, Tom, have found a comfortable niche where you and Ladd and Gregs can talk about all the things that make you comfortable. I come in, another voice questioning the things I see on here, and I get pelted. Please don't throw any pies at your computer screen. As for biblical textual basis for Life... http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html But then again, you'll find some offense to it immediately I'm sure. Too bad your plagarism thing didn't pan out... I guess pro-lifers aren't the demons you want them to be. I didn't criticize your book, I just said I had suspisions, don't be so paranoid. Also, as for your "list link" there's nothing more suspect and insincere than a man who is condescending of other men in the sphere of feminism. I have not ONCE made a general comment about WOMEN. Only those who have premarital, promiscuous, hedonistic, self-indulged, irresponsible lifestyles. Get over it, mate.

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T17:17:09-06:00

ID

65781

Comment

OEParker writes: Ahhh, the true Tom comes out. Obviously I haven't been shilling that Sagan book hard enough! Why would laymen want a watered down Bible? Tell you what: Since you're not interested in buying the book, why not at least go to the Amazon page, use the "Search Inside" feature, and click "Surprise Me" a few times. Then, when you have some vague idea of what's actually in my book, feel free to criticize it. Until then, stop embarrassing yourself. Douglas Adams, in the back of one addition of his Hitchhiker's series, said in an interview something to the effect that all the Theists he had ever met were stupid, uneducated people while all the Atheists were scientists and doctors. Given his documented history of longstanding friendships with many theists, I doubt that's even close to what he said. As for biblical textual basis for Life... http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html But then again, you'll find some offense to it immediately I'm sure. I don't find it offensive, but I find its relevance to the abortion debate to be weak as best. The only potentially relevant part I see is the fetal homicide statute in Exodus, which is a legitimate biblical basis for the honest belief that human personhood begins at conception (a view that I respect when it's stated sincerely). But if you're trying to make the argument that God wrote the Mosaic code and used it to give us data about biology, you might want to explain why it states that rabbits chew their cud (Lev 11:5-6, Dt 14:7-8), that bats are birds (Lev 11:13, Dt 14:11), that insects have four legs instead of six (Lev 11:23), and that unicorns (Num 23:22, Dt 33:17) and dragons (Dt 32:33) exist. Too bad your plagarism thing didn't pan out... We have a news service cut-and-pasting one of my articles on their own site, which is very much a copyright violation but not quite plagiarism. Also, as for your "list link" there's nothing more suspect and insincere than a man who is condescending of other men in the sphere of feminism. Really? Because I can think of several other things more suspect and insincere than that--though I doubt Hugo would describe my profile of him as condescending. I have not ONCE made a general comment about WOMEN. Only those who have premarital, promiscuous, hedonistic, self-indulged, irresponsible lifestyles. In other words, the ones who don't do what you tell them to do? You poor dear, surrounded by all these uppity women. No wonder you're lashing out--you must be terrified! Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T17:44:02-06:00

ID

65782

Comment

*Using your defense about God writing Mosaic law, one could take it as far as one wanted and descredit every one of the Ten Commandments. Imagine: "God wasn't against adultery! He said insects have four legs!" *I believe the interview Adams did was for either Scientific American or Skeptic Magazine. I will try to find more exact info, but this may be enough for you to google the interview up. *As for your Biblical skepticism: " In modern English, animals that 'chew the cud' are called ruminants. They hardly chew their food when first eaten, but swallow it into a special stomach where the food is partially digested. Then it is regurgitated, chewed again, and swallowed into a different stomach. Animals which do this include cows, sheep and goats, and they all have four stomachs. Coneys and rabbits are not ruminants in this modern sense. However, the Hebrew phrase for 'chew the cud' simply means 'raising up what has been swallowed'. Coneys and rabbits go through such similar motions to ruminants that Linnaeus, the father of modern classification (and a creationist), at first classified them as ruminants. Also, rabbits and hares practise refection, which is essentially the same principle as rumination, and does indeed 'raise up what has been swallowed'. The food goes right through the rabbit and is passed out as a special type of dropping. These are re-eaten, and can now nourish the rabbit as they have already been partly digested. It is not an error of Scripture that 'chewing the cud' now has a more restrictive meaning than it did in Moses' day. Indeed, rabbits and hares do 'chew the cud' in an even more specific sense. Once again, the Bible is right and the sceptics are wrong." http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/rabbits.aspvPrint=1 *This site will help you answer your other Biblical questions. *I Don't tell women what to do. I just observe behavior that degrades and leads to the murder of babies. I call it like I see it. I know plenty of women who do what the Bible tells them, and they have joy, not feminist anxiety. Jeers, OE

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T18:12:31-06:00

ID

65783

Comment

*Using your defense about God writing Mosaic law, one could take it as far as one wanted and descredit every one of the Ten Commandments. Imagine: "God wasn't against adultery! He said insects have four legs!" You need to decide whether or not you're going to use the Bible as a biology textbook. If you are, then you ought to expect people to point out when there are some problems with the way it deals with biology. I know plenty of women who do what the Bible tells them, and they have joy, not feminist anxiety. Don't say "the Bible" when you mean "the patriarchy," sunshine. There are women in collars who know a hell of a lot more about the Bible than cut-and-pasting a few paragraphs from an apologetics web site can teach you. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T18:28:37-06:00

ID

65784

Comment

The "patriarchy" that you refer to (very paranoid aren't we) is actually a lot more permissive than the Bible in many areas, dungheap. Those women you speak of, as well as many men, certainly know more and should. There will always be someone who knows more. Always. Is cutting and pasting unnacceptable to the great "Headmaster" or would you rather I type the whole thing for an hour and a half? The passage is more credible than what you offered. Anyone can write a book these days, Katie Couric, Gloria Estefan, Convicted Murderers, so don't think your contract gives you any wEIght. I hope you have fun in your "suburban dispair" and maybe one day, something violent enough will shake you out of it. Jeers, OE

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T18:39:43-06:00

ID

65785

Comment

*I meant Despair*, dungheap.

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T18:43:05-06:00

ID

65786

Comment

"We almost automatically believe that science is not only our best way of knowing things but, maybe, the only way of knowing things. If a thing cannot be known scientifically, we believe it cannot be known at all. That's the general torture we live in. Or, here , in America, anyway." -Walker Percy

Author

OEParker

Date

2006-04-09T18:48:02-06:00

ID

65787

Comment

Opie, I'm so proud of you that I'm going to mention a web site I don't usually mention on this forum: Stand Firm in Faith. Go there and have a great time. They need your penetrating wit, your exceptional frustration tolerance, and so forth. And tell 'em I sent you. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-04-09T19:05:59-06:00

ID

65788

Comment

OEParker- You are perfect. Please continue. You are making a case for why I live my life the way that I do. And you are doing it in such a fabulous and hateful way that it only proves everything I've ever believed in. If you need me, I'll be picking out a switch no larger than my thumb.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-04-10T08:01:11-06:00

ID

65789

Comment

*sigh* Children.

Author

Ironghost

Date

2006-04-10T14:10:01-06:00

ID

65790

Comment

All, I guess it's a good time to say "don't feed the trolls"—especially the ones we all know so well.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2006-04-10T14:24:14-06:00