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No. 42, July 5-12

<b><em>Misogynist Vulgarity</b></em>

I read Kamikaze's unwarranted attack on Oprah Winfrey ("Shut Out By The Queen," June 22) in your last issue and felt compelled to respond.

As the former general manager of two television stations in Jackson and the person who brought Oprah's show to Jackson, I think I understand a little about audiences and demographics. The people who listen to rap are mainly in the 12-34 year old age group, with the majority 12-24. Oprah's demographic is women, 25-65 years old, with most over 30 years old.

The truth is, Oprah's viewers do not want anything to do with rap music or rap artists. Oprah's audience is a more mature and sophisticated audience than the rap audience. Her audience does not want to see people on the show with their pants hanging below their buttocks, gold caps in their mouths, wearing 10 pounds of jewelry and spewing misogynist, vulgarity-filled lyrics. I cannot conceive of "housewives all over America" waiting for rappers to appear on Oprah.

I recognize Oprah has one of the most influential shows on television. I can understand hip-hop performers' thinking this would be a tremendous showcase. But just because Oprah is African American does not mean she owes rappers anything. If people watching Oprah have absolutely no interest in hip-hop, what advantage is it for Oprah to have rappers on her show? None at all.

So, Kamikaze and all the rest of the rappers: get over it! You cannot force your music on those who do not want to hear it. There is a place in the entertainment world for your genre. It just is not on Oprah.
— William H Dilday Jr, Jackson

Hip-Hop Needs to Go Kamikaze
So, Kamikaze, you think hip-hop is so relevant that it deserves a forum on Oprah? You think that all hip-hop is a reflection of "surrounding conditions"? Do those surrounding conditions include referring to women as "bitches" and "ho's," searching for flashy clothes, cars, and using anti-Semitic, anti-cop and anti-female language?

I'm sorry, but Oprah has a valid point. I think hip-hop is just pissed off because she doesn't agree with the message it's sending. And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with it. Hip-hop isn't speaking to conditions surrounding the rappers; it's creating and glorifying an angry image that sells records.

Kanye West grew up middle class. His parents are professors. Even Kanye's father stated publicly that by Kanye using the "N" word in his lyrics to gain "street cred" with his fans, he is belying his upbringing. "Conditions," my behind.

There is this violent, angry, misogynistic agenda in rap that is trumped up to sell the records. I'm sorry, but it's true. A lot of rappers, particularly recent ones, were not from the ghetto. And the fact that they keep rapping about it in spite of not coming from such roots, proves that it's all marketing. If you didn't rap about shooting each other, starting beefs and treating women like they were only made to spread their legs and look nice; if you rapped about how to overcome those things—these "surrounding conditions" as you put it—perhaps the impressionable youth you so desperately want to reach might not be as angry and incited to violence. Maybe then, white America wouldn't fear young black men quite so much if the media image of rappers singing about wanting to be thugs and shooting each other weren't so prominent.

Racism is still starkly present in this country, but there is some self-perpetuation going on here. If all hip-hop can do is get mad when people don't want to listen to their nihilistic rantings, then y'all should take that as a wake-up call to perhaps speak out against such glorification. Rap about making changes within your community, instead of rapping about how it is. Make it how it should be.

But you don't do that. You throw a temper tantrum because Oprah doesn't approve of such aggressive music. Perhaps the Queen had the right idea. It's certainly a relevant one. There is a reason she is The Queen, after all. She's had an awful lot of good ideas. This is one of them.
— Rhianna O'Malley, Jackson

Strange Fruit
Frank Melton isn't making Jackson look bad. Jackson is looking bad because of the actions of a bunch of worthless, young black males committing crimes.

You and your Jackson Free Press need to stop wasting ink on a damn n----r who wants to sue Melton. Why waste thousands of dollars worth of ink on a damn n----r who ain't worth 50 cents?

Attorney General Jim Hood knows he needs the black vote to attain his political aspirations so he had better lay off Frank.

I don't understand how you could be against a man trying to clean up and rescue a city from the grips of a bunch of worthless, no good, drain-on-society black males.

If I were mayor, I'd have their asses hanging from every tree limb on the lawn at City Hall. I am 59 years old, and like the majority of older black citizens of Jackson and across this country, I hate young black males because they do not appreciate what has been done (the civil rights struggle) for them. All black people should exhibit dignity because God has truly been on our side.

They (young blacks) look like fools cursing and creeping across concert stages performing that damn rap music, and the kids cannot read but can recall the stupid lyrics of the so-called music or song(s).

Jackson needs Frank Melton. We can do without Faye Peterson, Kamikaze, David Banner, the majority of City Council, and you, if you persist in criticizing a good man.
— George Lambus, Jackson

One Gun-Toting Man
I had to let you know how much I have enjoyed your articles and everything from front cover to the back cover over the last few months. In past years, I thought the JFP was just a local weekly party advertisement.

How wrong I was. Everybody should pick up an issue every week. The in-depth reporting, research and investigating is phenomenal. Two particular storylines (Frank Melton and Batman), were very forthright, informative, revealing and fair. I see those two people in a different light. Although like everybody else, I cannot pinpoint Frank Melton, I want to believe that he has the public's best interest at heart, but his flip-flop actions and statements make me not know what to believe. At times, Melton's almost as bad as the criminals.

Your interview with Batman let me know this man a lot better than what the media was making him out to be, fueled by Melton's passionate obsession. If Batman is this bad, big-time criminal, I feel the law will catch up with him eventually. Batman seems to me like many young black males characterized by stereotypes, who are just trying to come out of poverty. I can really relate to that, but I never sold drugs, robbed or killed anyone to get where I am today. (That was hard work, good role models, education and more hard work.) I pose the question: Do these youths really know any better if guns, drugs, killing and stealing are all they see in the neighborhoods?

As for Melton, if he really wants to help Jackson and its youth, why is he not mobilizing the city, county, state leaders, citizens, all law enforcement agencies, and the surrounding cities to unite and come up with solutions for the capital city? One gun-toting man cannot do it alone. Even Jesus could not bring all the people to God. It will take all people working together to make Jackson into the capital city that rivals all others.

I see so many opportunities and possibilities for making Jackson a premier destination in the South. If I could, I would invest heavily in the redevelopment of the city. Someone will eventually see the benefits of a prosperous, beautiful, vibrant city that Jackson can and will be. They will make the necessary monetary investments.

Keep up the excellent job you guys are doing. I pray that Goliath will not succeed in silencing what you bring to the community.
— Gary Proctor, Jackson

The Jackson Free Press welcomes letters to the editor. We welcome them so much that we're holding a raffle. Every month, another lucky gadfly will win a free JFP T-shirt.

Send letters to the editor to [e-mail missing], fax us at 601-510-9019 or send snail mail to P.O. Box 2047, Jackson, MS 39225.

Previous Comments

ID
72854
Comment

Dilday ans O'Malley are player haters. Hate on!

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-05T16:51:28-06:00
ID
72855
Comment

Lambus is strange fruit indeed. And a player hater too. Dilday, O'Malley, and Lambus are hating the players instead of the game. I thought everyone knew by now to hate the game not the player.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-05T16:55:37-06:00
ID
72856
Comment

What gave you that idea, Ray? ;-)

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-05T16:57:37-06:00
ID
72857
Comment

Listening, reading, and copying.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-05T17:09:02-06:00
ID
72858
Comment

Hate the game, not the player? Bull.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-05T17:39:30-06:00
ID
72859
Comment

oh Lord...LOL. and I had a whole other column wrote for next week. STOP THE PRESSES!!! Think I got a new one comin thru...

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-05T21:27:41-06:00
ID
72860
Comment

Ironghost, "all my life I had to fight. I loves Harpo." Sorry, I mean I love Oprah, but before I let her, Dilday, O'Malley and crazy Lambus beat up unfairly and diss rappers, I'd be pushing up daisies. Without rappers we wouldn't have The Message and Back that Thang Up. You hate the game instead of the player because the player is often faking, can change, and victim of the game, too. Sho nuff. Feel me. I got it. In other words, the game is dirty bur not necessarily the player. Dilday and O'Malley are probably some swell fellows, but a couple original gansters who the game has passed them by. They should get back in their rocking chairs and chill. On the other hand, Lambus has low self esteem and hates himself and most black people.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-06T08:53:55-06:00
ID
72861
Comment

Here's a little something about Leonard Pitts and his comments on rap (and the criticism that followed) that might be grist for the mill: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/departments/syndicates/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002800970 I'm still reeling from Mr. Lambus remarks! Whooeee, who turned over the rock?

Author
C.W.
Date
2006-07-06T15:53:14-06:00
ID
72862
Comment

Actually O'Malley is a woman, not a man, and where is this assumption that either Didlay or O'Malley are older? And this whole "hate the game not the player" thing is ludicrous. Or should I say Ludacris? This just completely proves the point that Hip-Hop can't take criticism. If you say anything bad about rappers and the message being sent than you're automatically a "hater", and just aren't 'getting' it. That's such BS! Y'all can't take the heat, get outta the Hell's Kitchen. Maybe there's a good reason why people keep criticizing rap music as being too violent, and unneccessarily vulgar and anti-female: because it IS. Or rather, a lot of it is. Lambus on the other hand...*shudder* The dude needs help. SERIOUS help. Ok that's it for me...play on players. Keep spinning your spin 'till there's no spin left to sell. Y'know it'll go gold if you make it go gold with a bullet, right? At least that's how the records sell...

Author
Lippy
Date
2006-07-07T14:26:07-06:00
ID
72863
Comment

Lippy, no problem on your comments, but be sure that you don't generalize about who "y'all" are. We've have very complex discussions about hip-hop on this site in the past. For example. For the record, I agree with most of your points, although I perhaps know Kamikaze a bit better than you do. That's not your problem, though. And I think that the characterization of you as a "player hater" was extreme and probably should have challenged Ray on it. I think we can all agree on Lambus, however. ;-D

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-07T14:48:28-06:00
ID
72864
Comment

Lippy. That line is a player's joke that Tom Joyner and J. Anthong Brown have been using for years. I waited baitedly to see how much mileage I could get out of it. I thought of the response over night after Donna asked a question and Ironghost said my response was bull. I was surprised he didn't make any comeback, and no one else said anything until you did. I realized later that O'Malley was a woman. Dilday and O'Malley made very good points. I agree almost entirely with them. However, since I want to see Oprah have rappers on the show, I will say almost anything to bait people into helping the cause. Thanks for your comments. "As y'all hate on, we shall rap on." Oprah had Celine Deon on the show a couple of days ago. She's about as exciting as watching earthworms eat dirt. Oprah should put some rappers on the show to liven up that dead house of pretending. Sho nuff. Blieve that!

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-07T15:00:53-06:00
ID
72865
Comment

By the way, I know Dilday. He was/is one of my mentors.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-07T15:02:05-06:00
ID
72866
Comment

Also Lippy, old folks and too many young ones too have been wishing we would go away for years, but we ain't going anywhere but to the top of the charts where we belong. We're here to stay and give you something to dance and exercise to. When you want to go to sleep put on some Barry Manilow, Celine Deon, counrty music, or something else. When you want to dance and have fun, call us. "Get on the floor...."

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-07T15:20:44-06:00
ID
72867
Comment

Ray, while I understand entirely what you're saying you'll have to pardon me while I don't believe a word of it. You can't simply excuse the "player" because they're "a victim of the game". If you don't like "the game", you don't play it. If you play that game, you're a part of it. It's as simple as that.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-07T15:33:54-06:00
ID
72868
Comment

I re-read O'Malley letter. It's brillant, insightful, and piercing. We rappers would listen if we weren't so busy making hit records for the world over to hear. The misic must go on, Lippy. Unfortunately, no one can stop a moment whose time has come. Oprah must accept rap and hip-hop or suffer the consequences in plummeting approval ratings. Shunning rap or hip-hop, the greatest musical train, mankind has seen or ever witnessed, isn't feasable, plausible or financially sustaining to CBS. Oprah shall let us on the show. It's up to her whether she does it voluntarily or involutarily. Y'all can write this down within the tables of time. Rap and hip-hop is bigger than Oprah, and she will go down before hip-hop or rap ever will. Sho I'm right. Giving myself a high five. Back to the studio. Too late, Ironghost.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-07T16:03:35-06:00
ID
72869
Comment

I tend to agree with what Salon posted a while back: "Oprah recently defended herself on MTV, saying, "I respect other people's rights to do whatever they want to do in music and art ... I don't want to be marginalized by music or any form of art ... I feel rap is a form of expression, as is jazz. I'm not opposed to rap. I'm opposed to being marginalized as a woman." (This is a perfect example of the high level of production and expert forethought that goes into anything that comes out of Oprah's mouth, the James Frey incident excluded. You've gotta admire her ability to set the terms of the debate, as much as it's unsettling.) In Yvonne Bynoe's AlterNet piece, she chuckles at the sense of entitlement exhibited by Ludacris, Ice Cube and 50 Cent, asking, "It's Oprah who has issues by refusing to celebrate black men who've made millions by demeaning black women?" Bynoe argues that Oprah has had rap artists on her show -- just cleaner, suburban-mom-friendly ones. I had a great laugh when John Legend and Alicia Keys were offered up as examples of "rappers" who have appeared on the show. But Sean "Diddy" Combs, Eve, LL Cool J, Queen Latifah and Missy Elliott (all undoubtedly rappers, though some have turned into Hollywood actors or entrepreneurs) have made appearances. There's no denying Oprah has made a concerted effort to support black artists (as she does at her annual Legends Ball). Bynoe sides with Winfrey, writing that "she is choosing not to support black entertainers whose work denies the humanity of black women." At issue is the "successful subset of these genres" (read: not all rap music) that present black women as "bitches, tricks, 'hos and chickenheads." As the AlterNet piece argues, there is no shortage of media outlets for rappers. "But Oprah is virtually alone in her ability, through her selection of guests, to provide the world with a broader view of black Americans and their achievements," Bynoe writes. "For black women, who are so commonly equated with the stereotypes of half-naked, gyrating women found in rap music videos, an opposing portrayal is welcome."

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-07T16:05:57-06:00
ID
72870
Comment

I can't read Kate. You already know I can't write.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-07T16:13:04-06:00
ID
72871
Comment

I've always interpreted "don't hate the player, hate the game" as a concession to existentialism, as informed by reductionist materialism--that we are all puppets of an absurd universe, our every decision and every desire the product of biology and chemistry. We can't change this way of existence, but we can find meaning in rebelling against the order of things, in our decision to cure the disease that has already killed all of its patients, in our determination to push the boulder continuously up the hill forever, knowing that it will never stop rolling back down the hill to be pushed yet again. But moral condemnation of others, from such a perspective, is pointless. The best we can do is rage against the indifferent cosmos that produced us. Or, in other words... Don't hate the player; hate the game. Wow. It sounds a lot more depressing when I say it. Cheers, TH

Author
Tom Head
Date
2006-07-10T02:50:00-06:00
ID
72872
Comment

Existentialism is one of the biggest cop-out philosophies ever invented. I detest it, and so I therefore still cry "BS" when I hear this "hate the player not the game" stuff. It's a way of ditching responsibility. Oh well it's "SOCIETY" to blame, not the message that's actually being created by the rappers and being sent to the masses. It's not the RAPPERS' fault that there are ghettos and violence. It's not the RAPPERS' fault that women are treated like dirt...in their SONGS :-P Ok, so society is not a gangsta rappers' fault no, I can agree with that. However; glorifying these societal ills in rap songs that are possible to change ARE the fault of the rapper who may or may not even have come from the roots that breed such unpleasantness. And just to sell a record, no less. An image. A mirage. By copping-out to the whole existentialist perception that since nothing means anything anyway, no one has any responsibility; you [the proverbial you/artist] are simply deferring the inherant social responsibility of not creating music that helps to incite violence, misogyny, and dessimating the concept of empathy towards our fellow man. If you help encourage/perpetuate a negative societal/racial cycle, than you ARE part of the problem, and creating more problems within the one you complain about in your songs. And than you wonder why people are turned off by it, criticize you for it, and don't want to listen to such antipathy? If you are truly going by an existentialist POV, then it wouldn't be a "hate the game not the player" it would be "Who cares either way?". But that's not what's happening. What's happening is ganster rappers who glorify anger and violence and cruelty/indifference towards women in their songs are getting defensive, saying it's not their responsibility to send a better, more positive message. And yet they act so indignant when people don't want to listen to the message they want to send, which is a negative one, and one that is just creating more problems. How about "make the player change the game"? Try a little Locke on for size, eh?

Author
Lippy
Date
2006-07-10T10:03:52-06:00
ID
72873
Comment

Oprah is afraid of young black businessmen. Plus, she's not even the queen any more. Tyra Banks is slowly eclipsing her. The disrespecting of women element of rap is slowly dying. We know we need to rid ourselves of that portion of the game. Most rappers don't generally treat women that way. I urge y'all to watch as we clean up the game of rap. I bet Oprah will still refuse to let us on her show. I'm telling you, her hate is deeper than that old "marginalizing of women" refrain. Will Smith and Kanye West aren't hard core rappers. If you pull a gun and start shooting aimlessly around them, they'll out run the bullets. 50 cents, Lil Jon, and I would just stand there and dare the bullets to penetrate our chiseled bodies. Yes, I mentioned myself as a rapper. I formerly performed with the duo Cookie and Cream. We broke up after one release called "Still Pimping." It sold 3 copies in the Noxapater and Louisville areas. I bought a copy, my son bought one, and I left one with my cousin who has just got out the pen. Cream didn't even want a copy. It turned out the world wasn't ready for us. Their lost, not ours.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T10:11:26-06:00
ID
72874
Comment

Lippy..I'm truly sorry that you feel the way you do but....there are plenty of rappers who are trying to make a change. me being one of them. but i dont try to make change by painting a rose-colored view of society. We must first identify the problem in full. grasp it. shake it up and then pour out a more pleasing concoction. but that will take time just as it took time for society to get as screwed up as it is. As soon as some of our artists and some of your folk get a better frame of reference to speak from then you will see a more friendly version of the music you hear today. But as long as Bush is in ofc, projects and ghettos still exist, and there are some kids RIGHT here in the city of Jackson that will go to bed hungry tonight, you'll have to excuse the angst!!!! It aint sweet out here. as far as oprah is concerned yes, kanye and Will were on their show but they are about as non-threatning as you can get... not exactly rocking the applecart there. I believe Kanye made his telethon statement just to hype up his album(and Im not the only one). she's had karrine stephens aka superhead on to talk about her life in the hiphop world. Shes had fake writers, rapist, and all the like on her show, but rappers are worse??? Methinks not. Lippy, your comments are admirable indeed but much easier said than done....there are ALWAYS two sides to a coin. Alot of our youth just havent been able to flip the damn thing over yet.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-10T10:29:36-06:00
ID
72875
Comment

Tom, be not dismayed. "Hate is going around and it's breaking many hearts. Love is in need of love today." As we're being criticized, great efforts are on the way to fix many of the evils Lippy spoke about. We do need to clean up the rap game. Maybe if we rapped about good things, youngsters in dire straits would then dream more often of good things and thereby change their circumstances. After all, "we are what we think about." Why is Oprah fleeing her responsibility to help fix the rap game? Why doesn't she want to help? I'm telling y'all she has another agenda. She's afraid of what she can't control. She knows we have more juice than her. She doesn't want the world to see us in our completeness. She's being used by the system.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T10:37:22-06:00
ID
72876
Comment

Ray, I have a hard time believing that Oprah is "afraid of young black businessmen." I have an even harder time believing that it is her responsibility to "fix the rap game." The fact is, Oprah has power, and that's why rappers want her attention and support. If she's such a fearful, fading, has-been, then why do these youngsters even care?

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-10T11:04:14-06:00
ID
72877
Comment

You see Kate, hate blinds you. Smile. I didn't say it was her responsibility. It's the responsibility of all of us that care to help fix socity's evils. Rap is not necessarily evil but needs fixing in order for it to be all that it can be. If Oprah sees the problems as clearly as she claims to. And if she can wate television time on a lying author, Vinny Barberina, a six-legged dog, and all the other personal crap she discusses on her show, why not take on rap music (again, the greatest musical train to come our way)? Having the rappers on her show will help Oprah, too. Believe me Kate she is fading. I stopped watching her a long time ago to instead see Maury and Springer. Oprah is boring. I see more excitement in the raindrops hitting my window panes. Sho nuff.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T11:15:27-06:00
ID
72878
Comment

Kate, part of the reason the rappers want to go on the show is to stop Oprah from wasteing so much good televison time on crap. Rappers seek to do good too.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T11:20:26-06:00
ID
72879
Comment

Sorry, Kate. I think I get your point now. Oprah is selfish! The plight of poor, fatherless, lost, and directionless youths is not the concern of Oprah. Although she can help send a positive and broad message to them, she doesn't think she should.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T11:28:27-06:00
ID
72880
Comment

Ray, so all the other work that she does helping non-rappers just doesn't count, because you don't value it as much? Her Legends Ball, celebrating the achievement of African American women just doesn't count, since it doesn't support rap? Go Google her, and find out how she does spend her time, instead of just complaining about how she *doesn't* spend her time. There's plenty for her to do, without being forced into focusing on the rap industry. You said that it was her "responsibility to fix the rap game." I just don't buy that. You may not identify with her message or with her guests, but that does not mean that she is in any way responsible for the rap industry. Why is she not free to choose who her guests are? Why do they need her, if she caters to 40 year old white women and is such a fading star? As far as I'm concerned, she can wield her power and influence in any way that she wants, because she has earned it. You may not like that she doesn't have certain performers on her show, but she does not have any inherent "responsibility" to fix the rap game, or promote rap, or even like it.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-10T12:19:32-06:00
ID
72881
Comment

And, Ray, I really resent your comment that "hate blinds you."

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-10T12:21:00-06:00
ID
72882
Comment

Ok, Kate. It's a fact that hate blinds people. Anyway, having rappers on the show isn't for the benefit of the rappers. It's for the benefit of those whom rappers so heavily influence. This is where the great breakdown exist - with the youthful, lost, and impressionable people. Caesar has power too until it was taken. Power offers such great opportunity. Power is often misused, as we know. Oprah does a few good things that money allow people with money to do. She needs to do one more good thing and take on rap or rappers. She has no good reason not to. Except that she's too concerned what her audience will think. Today, she has on the show people who can't stop eating. Although I eat too much too, I'd rather see rappers on the show instead of eaters. Again, hate blinds. It's undisputed. I was joking when I said it to you but it's still no less true. Someone has to fight for children who are lost and headed too fast toward desruction. Oprah is no role model when it comes to tackling that. She another Michael Jordan and Bill Cosby. Sho nuff. Feel me. I got juice, Kate. Are you coming to the movie tonight so I can meet you? Hopefully, I'm not making too many women mad.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T13:07:39-06:00
ID
72883
Comment

now explain the remark about Bill Cosby. I'm pretty interested in this one. If we want to get real candid, email is fine. ;-)

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-10T13:34:30-06:00
ID
72884
Comment

Jimmy, I'm only talking to women.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T13:45:15-06:00
ID
72885
Comment

I'm still waiting for why Rappers need to be on Oprah. That's a mystery.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-10T13:48:10-06:00
ID
72886
Comment

I can see why rappers want to be on Oprah, but, like Irongoahst, I really don't understand why they NEED to be, and why she's villified for not having them on. I really, truly, do not believe that hosting rappers on the Oprah show is going to do much for the lost kids of our society. they're supposed to be off at school when her show airs, not sitting around watching a show aimed at 40 year old white women. I also don't understand why you discount the ways she does help society. Her celebration of women, and of women of color have always been inspirational to me. I also wonder why you seem to think that THE ONLY way to help "lost" children is via rap. Surely not every young african american is a fan? Does Mother Theresa get vilified for not promoting rap? Just because Oprah is black and successful doesn't mean that she's required to promote rap. Nor is it the only venue that she has for helping society. Since when does not promoting Rap artists, who are already successful, count as selfish behavior? Why is she so vilified for this choice that she has made? You seem to be defining and identifying black culture solely by the rap industry.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-10T13:58:14-06:00
ID
72887
Comment

Kate, you're humoring me. Are you doing it purposely? I was! If Oprah can do years of shows for 40 year old white women, why can't she do a week on rap for rap fans and detractors. Rap needs attention and cleaning up too, since it is reaching so many young people. Kate, young people are our future, not middle-aged white women. Rappers need to be on the show because they're now one of youth's greatest influences. Where have y'all been for 20 years? Why does over-eaters need to be on Oprah? Why does Vinny Barberina needs to be on there so many times. Is it because middle-aged white women and Oprah want to see him? Why did that six-legged dog need to be on there? He could have been learning how to walk with six legs. Smile. Do you mean to tell me you don't believe powerful Oprah (your words)can expose the upside and downside of rap? If I might quote the late JSU, is that all y'all got? Sho nuff. Watch out there now!

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T14:26:52-06:00
ID
72888
Comment

Rap is not the only way to help lost children. Those children might be better off without rap, however, rap is here, and it's kicking tail and taking names despite all the haters. Mother Teresa was a big rap fan. You didn't know? I could tell by how she walked. Didn't she spend her life working with the poor and down-trottens. She didn't cater to 40 year old white women! Oprah ain't right, Kate. That's a fact. I'm not asking her to promote rap. I'm asking her to recognize rap for its power just as youths have. Oprah is trying to gain mo' ground by being lo' down. "It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under." Sho nuff.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T14:45:47-06:00
ID
72889
Comment

an old rapper who don't know when to quit is just like a boxer who doesn't either, punch drunk and makes less and less sense.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-10T15:02:18-06:00
ID
72890
Comment

I'm making a lot of sense, Jimmy, unless you think only Oprah's audience matters. I bet the young folks disagree with you. Jimmy, haters, without good reasons, are as plentiful as the morning dew. If Oprah doesn't come to her senses soon, we'll wait on Tyra to pass her by then go on her show.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T15:14:34-06:00
ID
72891
Comment

With apologies to Ali Greggs, George Lambus must die! Anyhow, though I'm not anti-rap, I don't like a lot of it that's out there now and I'm a black male. I don't understand why Oprah is getting the flack that she's getting. I've mentioned this before that the demographic of her viewers and in her audience are not the same as those who are typical rap fans. Oprah herself is in her early 50s. I don't know many 50+ people who listen to rap. So why make a push for people that may not appeal to her demographic? And what about Montel Williams? He doesn't do a lot of celebrity interviews, but would he invite a lot of rappers on his show? As for Tyra Banks, her show is aimed towards a younger audience, so if she wants to invite rap artists on her show, it wouldn't be out of place.

Author
golden eagle
Date
2006-07-10T15:37:24-06:00
ID
72892
Comment

I guess Oprah gets a pass. Prostitutes, murders, molesters, liars, addicts, alcoholics, and, all, other kinds of boring musicians, miscreants, and societial misfits can be on her show but rappers aren't good enough. I guess she condones all the other crap her visitors have done, but rappers have sinned far too greatly for her or her audience. What about her sin of using drugs? Oprah has double standards just as many of her supporters and fans. Good and bad are defined by Oprah and her fans and no one else. What a bunch of bull. Her head is bigger than the show. GEB, she's getting the flak because she's full of sh!t. Rappers should find them a 3-headed cat then use the cat to get on the show. Anyway, before long her Queendom will be out of the way, and somebody with more merit will do the job. Yeeeaaappp.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T16:04:04-06:00
ID
72893
Comment

Rap is effecting/affecting more than black culture or black folks. It has transcended race and class, and white kids of 40 plus white women are spending millions on it. Poor black kids couldn't make rap or hip-hop the hot commodity it is. Oprah and her fans need to stop fronting and get real. Oprah has done a good job of celebrating women. I can see that. However, just as someone finally made her see how her drug use and lying about it needed to be corrected, rappers need to be recognized, confronted, and forced into corrrection, too. What a mouthfull! Can y'all handle it?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-10T17:41:15-06:00
ID
72894
Comment

Understand something....We dont NEED Oprah's platform. Let's get that straight. And by and large we DON'T care...The issue came up ONLY because Oprah drew first blood with her blindside of Ludacris on her show. She made the first attack then withdrew, choosinbg not to even comment. Hell, Ludacris was not able to even give a rebuttal. does tthat sound like a fair discussion. We want on now to state our case. See, we're not going to sit back and let her have a platform to villify us in the public without us having a chance to defend ourselves. We will survive without Oprah and even if she went on her show and called for an all out boycott (because yes, she is powerful) she couldnt squash us. So dont get it twisted. Oprah threw the rocks and then hid her hands...A Queen would welcome a verbal joust.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-11T13:37:02-06:00
ID
72895
Comment

Alright, I've run out of ammunition since Kate, Lippy, and Ironghost won't play with me anymore. I enjoyed it ladies and Gentlemen. However, down with Oprah. Down with Oprah. Rap wins again. Rap wins again. "It's hard out here on a pimp!" And "Pimping ain't easy!" But, "I'm still pimping!" Much love. I'm out.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-11T17:25:53-06:00
ID
72896
Comment

Oprah is a player hating coward who hit Ludacris and ran. This is the same as waiting on a man to go to sleep then throwing hot grits on him. She invited Ludacris on the show to discuss Crash then ambushed him with Rap music then didn't give him a chance to retort or respond. This is classic backstabbing. And as the O'Jays so eloquently put it about backstabbers, "They smile in your face, (and) all the time they want to take your place, backstabbers." na, na, na, na, na, na.... Oprah has this big old show and all these fans who look up to her, yet she has no balls, guts, or apparent morals. Apparently her fans and supporters agree with hitting and running. I can only imagine what they're teaching our sons and daughters. Fellows we got to take back over the children lest we acquiesce in raising a family of play hating cowards, too. I don't want my granddaughter and grandsons to be like this. I'm begging y'all. Our parents, grandparents, and other extended family and love ones, told us in the good old days that "its wrong to start a fight and run." I guess Oprah and her fans didn't learn this. This make me tired of living. But giving up is so hard to do!

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T08:49:04-06:00
ID
72897
Comment

Who cares what Oprah thinks about anything or anyone???

Author
James Hester
Date
2006-07-12T08:59:59-06:00
ID
72898
Comment

because people mag and E! told me to. that is all that matters.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-12T09:02:32-06:00
ID
72899
Comment

It's beginning to look like only me, JimNWR.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T09:02:47-06:00
ID
72900
Comment

Ray, Being the suburban white chick I am, I would invite, again, the other side of this issue to not be so demeaning to 40 year old white women/housewives/whatever the code of the day is. I believe with all of my heart that if an extended hand of respect was given to us, this would be less of a pissing match and more of a making-a-change-for-the-better act. I do believe that rappers + Oprah would be very powerful. I'm also very interested in the ideas to enact that change besides revenge on a talk show host. I for one am sick to death of being called a hater for demanding respect as a woman.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T09:22:57-06:00
ID
72901
Comment

Where have you been Emily? I've missed you. It good to know that a good friend like you have been reading my posts. I don't really understand why being called a hater infuriate women so much, especially if it's not true. Okay, Oprah is the hater, not you, Kate, and Lippy. Leonard Pitts of the Miami Herald has a op-ed, column, or whatever it's called today, dealing with rap, Jay-Z, and Cristal wine. He says, more or less, what I've been saying all along - that "rap could have been, should have been, a truth-teller and world-shaker." Actually, I believe rap is some of this and can be more. Leonard goes on to say how Cristal will take the rappers money and free advertising but won't give them any respect or let them into the club. Yet, people say they have no clue why rappers hate the systems and so on. I have said countless times that rappers have wronged women and need to stop immediately. Y'all know I have. Most of my points above are well-taken, and they're so much that way until I have practically closed down the debate about this. And yes I know I'm approaching JSU status with some of you. Guess what? I'm thinking about opening up The JSU School For Confronting and Studying Player Haters. Oprah will be the first subject. All is far in love. It's just a game we plays. Much love.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T09:57:10-06:00
ID
72902
Comment

I haven't followed this thread closely, but allow me to dip in for a moment. Is Oprah really, truly a "hater"? How do you define "hater" exactly? To me, someone who slides a credit card through a woman's crack to make money could well be called a "hater"—although I personally don't choose to, because I don't see any point going around calling names when we're trying to get people to communicate. This kind of reminds me of the old problem we hear about where black women aren't supposed to criticize black men.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T10:01:02-06:00
ID
72903
Comment

By the way, I'm not calling Oprah supporters haters for demanding respect. You deserve that. I'll fight to give you that. I have been doing it all my life too. Lots of haters hate rap for reasons beyond or outside of the disrespecting women claim. Rappers are often quite offensive. I don't like the way they dress and act in many instances. Moreso, on many occasions, I don't want to hear their music. However, for the most part, I have no real or lasting hate for them.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T10:06:10-06:00
ID
72904
Comment

I see I'm being successful today. You asked a good question Donna, and I don't know that I was prepared for it, unfortunately. But I'll try. Nelly was stone disrespectful, careless, and crude to every woman and to all mankind when he did that. I wish someone had precluded that video from being made. I don't blame women for boycotting him or his music. Bob Johnson is one of the biggest x-pimps of the rap game because he allowed crap like that to be shown repeatedly. MTV, too. A hater in the vein to which I speak is a person who hates rap or rappers for reasons they won't fully state. The hate is beyond the claim that rap disrespects women which is a given and piercing argument. They hate rap because they disapprove of the look or images associated with it such as grilles, baggy clothes, glorifying of materialism, bling-bling, the artists, disrespect toward the system, and so on. Nelly certainly showed great hate when he committed that dastardly and bastardly act against women. A hater is also a person who hates the whole of rap for the lo' down deeds of a few rappers. In summary, a pimp got caugh off guard by Donna's question, and he needs more time to come up with a good answer.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T10:32:16-06:00
ID
72905
Comment

Been working like nuts Ray. Oh, and I got married. Hater is just such a loaded word to me because it has been used against me so often when trying to discuss women's issues and rap. By your definition, I completely understand and can stand behind it. But that word has often been used as a cop-out when the mysogyny is addressed, especially when voiced by a white chick ;) I also maintain that Oprah calls many out on the carpet. It's NOT limited to Ludicris, and it was a very, very valid point when he's promoting a movie that brings awareness to racism and bigotry.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T10:39:10-06:00
ID
72906
Comment

A hater in the vein to which I speak is a person who hates rap or rappers for reasons they won't fully state. The hate is beyond the claim that rap disrespects women which is a given and piercing argument. They hate rap because they disapprove of the look or images associated with it such as grilles, baggy clothes, glorifying of materialism, bling-bling, the artists, disrespect toward the system, and so on. Sounds like rap-ism. ;-) But how can you know that Oprah "hates" for such reasons? Many women hate rap, and rappers, merely because of the way many of them degrade women in the lyrics in order to get rich, and then turn around and justify in wholly unconvincing ways. For the sake of argument, isn't that reason enough? Hell, it's mighty easy to "hate" anybody who has ever worn a Klan uniform, even though some of them might have just shown up for the cross-burning based on peer pressure and never actually did a dastardly deed. A hater is also a person who hates the whole of rap for the lo' down deeds of a few rappers. That part I agree with completely, as I've expressed many times here. But I'm not convinced that is clinging to Oprah in a convincing way, however. I'm all about supporting hip-hop, but I also worry about rappers trying to benefit, and profit, off a double standard. At some point, you really do have to take responsibility for your actions, even as other people need to stop generalizing. The hip-hop world has the power, and financial and otherwise, to cut out the misogynistic crap tomorrow if they would. And many women, such as myself, are going to run out of patience for the woman "hate" over the long haul. It's going to start to trump the good that they do if the industry doesn't show the willingness to self-regulate a bit. As for Oprah, I see that as useless attacking-the-messinger—or one might call it transference of guilt.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T10:43:42-06:00
ID
72907
Comment

I think if rappers as a whole would take a stance to support women, they'd find out how much "hate" we both endure. Combine the powers, and see where that takes us. I do remember reading that a "bitch carries herself like a bitch." Same argument as a "rapper carries himself like a rapper." Both are crap.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T10:54:50-06:00
ID
72908
Comment

Good luck in marriage, Emily. It's a walk of faith as I guessed and later learned for sure. I got caught today not quite ready for anybody to shoot back. I'll remember to shoot and duck from now on. Mind you, I'm not conceding any points yet eventhough a pimp is staggering a little right now. A pimp needs more time to clear his head. .Mrs. Carter disagrees with me too but what does she know.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T10:56:29-06:00
ID
72909
Comment

Amen, sister. That is one of the more pitiful excuses I've heard rappers come up with. You could also perhaps add, "A hater talks like a hater."

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T10:56:51-06:00
ID
72910
Comment

Listen to the missus, Ray. And you know we love you. Sorry to cold-cock you. I was trying to stay out of this one. ;-D

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T10:58:13-06:00
ID
72911
Comment

Our blog censor is unbelievable. ;-)

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T10:58:42-06:00
ID
72912
Comment

Kamikaze, if you're out there reading, help a pimp out until I get re-loaded. I'm loading my gun as I write this.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T11:10:51-06:00
ID
72913
Comment

Ray, this pimp phase you're going through is kind of endearing. ;-) Kamikaze and I have already been down this road and have reached an understanding of sorts, I think. I probably won't go many rounds here. I think I've said everything I want to say. So, y'all have it.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T11:13:25-06:00
ID
72914
Comment

I've enjoyed reading Big Playah R. Rock's posts on here. I wonder what comes after his pimp phase.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-12T11:19:55-06:00
ID
72915
Comment

Me too. My friends and I are still joking from the last one. Typical Friday night question, "Do I look like I'm carrying myself like a bitch tonight? You think this is okay?" Or sometimes now-hubby will joke, "There you go! Carrying yourself like a bitch again!" I've had this discussion regarding mysogyny (with rap, country, rock, society as a whole...) and had the discussion and had it, and at the end of the day, some men just CAN'T comprehend that women are just like them, but different. Some men, and women, believe that women are lesser beings, they've been indoctinated that as much as we white folks were indoctrinated the same about black folks. Still wrong.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T11:20:06-06:00
ID
72916
Comment

Another thing is that term; "hater". It's decptively simple, being short, and loaded with emotional baggage and therefore perfect for quickly disposing of any reasonable argument anyone puts up. It's a term loaded with negative connotations, and associating someone with it is intended to put them on the defensive quickly. Rap has a lot of bad things going for it, and hate is the worst.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-12T11:23:17-06:00
ID
72917
Comment

I rather pride myself on carrying myself like a b!tch. I took that word back a long time ago—after I figured out that I only got called one for my more courageous actions. ;-)

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T11:23:22-06:00
ID
72918
Comment

I must agree with Iron -- this time. (grin) The word "hater" is a weird word to use for folks who disagree with you, which seems to be its primary connotation in its popular use. Maybe I'm missing something. On the last point, though, I will add that rap also has a lot of good things going for it. It's too bad that that the negative parts (bitches, hoes, crack'd credit cards) too often obscure the positive parts (reality).

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T11:26:10-06:00
ID
72919
Comment

I'm back. Stronger than ever. A pimp wasn't staggering - he was deceiving. A diversionary tactic, too. Watch and learn fellows. School is in session! You see what happened here was the women used diversionary tactic on a pimp. Much time is devoted to this tactic in pimp school. My teacher told me to pretend to be injured when its used on me. I took the course twice so as to quickly identify its use. Did y'all notice my debaters' silent concessions to the fact that Oprah hit and ran on Ludacris, and the immorality of that cowardly act itself. How about the backstabbing part, too? Neither of them said a word about any of that. In pimp school we call that "silent admissions." Sho nuff. Feel it, believe it. The word hater has many connotations. Oprah is moreso a hater because she hates rap and rappers and knows she can't control them because they don't respect anything or anybody who/that don't respect them. She is standing on imperfect ground. If she believed for a second that she's totally right in her position and could defend it she would let real rappers on the show without unnecessary delay. She knows she did Ludacris and rap music wrong on that occasion, and so do her supporters. I can say this firmly despite all of rap obvious problems. I rest my case. A pimp's job is completed.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T11:55:40-06:00
ID
72920
Comment

Um. I said that Oprah had every right to ask Ludicris that question considering he was promoting the movie Crash...about racism and bigotry and such. Really. Several times. On other threads too. And our problem is don't respect someone until they respect me first. See, those lyrics were the first indication of disrespect. "If they ain't cuttin, then I put em' on foot patrol." Yep. Disrespectful. So by rapper rule, she has no obligation to respect the man. Although I do think she was as respectful as possible. You know it's hard out here for a bitch.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T12:00:09-06:00
ID
72921
Comment

Back Up, Ray. Oprah has to let rappers on her show, why? And the reason she doesn't is because she has some type of alledgely shaky argument against rap? We've pointed out problems with rap, and all we get is evasions. That's not debate.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-12T12:01:20-06:00
ID
72922
Comment

But Emily she didn't allow him to respond or she didn't air his response. That wasn't fair. She still ambushed him. She didn't telll him ahead of time she would discuss or attack rap. Since she's the supreme hater of rap why not allow on the show the supreme proponent of it. Y'all are afriad of a fair fight. She doesn't have to let him on the show. She didn't have to let him on in the first place. I'm surprised she did considering all the hate she has for rap and rappers. Ludacris did a wonderful job in Crash. He has great potential as an actor. Since Oprah started the fight, she should in fairness, finish it where it was started. She's a coward who hits and run. No doubt about it. And that's immoral. She ain't no Queen. She's a coward. I'm calling her these things because she is.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T12:13:45-06:00
ID
72923
Comment

I might add, Emily, I bet she would have considered it unfair for him or anyone to ask her about her history of crack abuse unless she consented and was prepared. Sho' I'm right! Can I get a high five?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T12:15:36-06:00
ID
72924
Comment

So a famous rapper isn't smart enough to figure out that Oprah Winfrey might ask him about rap when he was on her show wanting publicity? Puzzled. It strikes me that Oprah, on the other hand, would realize that, were Ludacris to host a talk show and invite her on, that he might ask her about all kinds of things. All this seems a bit baby-ish to me. I'm still seeing double standards here. It's not has if Ludacris doesn't have the power to communicate what's on his mind. Must we coddle these guys? I can support the right to free expression, but I'm not going to be sympathetic to a bunch of whining about how they don't get the exact press they want. That happens to everybody in the public eye. Take your hits, and keep proving the, er, "haters" wrong. For God's sake, don't prove them right.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T12:34:39-06:00
ID
72925
Comment

Oprah fights like a girl. She hits when you're not looking, runs fastly away, then goes the the principal office or home to hide. It's true. No matter how you try to hide it, the facts state the case. Jimmy, how you fellow like this? Oprah is chicken!

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T12:56:25-06:00
ID
72926
Comment

And "we're", since I'm now "y'all" and all, aren't afraid of a fight. We're severely disappointed that y'all have made it into a fight. We're disappointed that it's us versus them. Just disappointed...and tired of it.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T12:59:31-06:00
ID
72927
Comment

Fighting like a girl? Please. I think it's more like standing and obseving y'all's hen circle since you're not getting your way. We're also seeing an attempt at bullying, but the only thing Oprah could do at this point is disappoint me by giving in. Yeah. I said hen circle ;) Because that's what THIS is at this point. Calling her chicken? Y'all should just take your toys and go on home :P What I DO know about girls is that if we don't like the way someone is playing, we'll just ignore it. I'm sure that if something substantial had been brought, or is being brought as Kamikaze suggested, she'll consider a business decision. But it's not in a strong woman's spirit to just concede to a perceived conflict. Start a foundation with her. Help her produce an awareness-raising movie. But to just yell at her for doing her job? The only thing I see happening here is some more publicity and exploiting a powerful woman's name to get it.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T13:05:58-06:00
ID
72928
Comment

Emily, how are we bullying for just trying to talk to Oprah on her show? It seems Oprah's supporters don't believe in fairness, they just want her to win. It's perfectly alright for her to start a fight and run. Ok, Emily, I finally get it. We're not trying to exploit her. We want a fair conversation with her about what we do. If Oprah doen't do the right thing soon, I suggest we make this thing bigger than Oprah v. Rap. We may have to make it Man v. Woman and see who can hold out the longest. I'm out. Just so y'all will know, we're in it to win it.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T13:17:14-06:00
ID
72929
Comment

It's the name-calling Ray. And the fact that I don't view it as her starting a fight and running or even a confrontation. She's a business woman making business decisions. She knows her mission and she sticks to it. I find nothing cowardly, chicken, or hateful about it. It may not fit into what others think it should be, but it is what it is. A show targeted to women. A very successful one at that. I've found the original column and many comments following it to be very stereotypical and harsh against women, especially white ones. I guess it would be helpful to know what would be a "win" here? I do think a fair conversation about what rappers do, INCLUDING the use of defamatory (is that a word?) language and mysogyny is reasonable if that's what she wants for HER show. What I DON'T think is cool is all the name-calling and labeling of different ideas.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T13:28:42-06:00
ID
72930
Comment

I really don't understand, Ray, how you know that "Oprah Hates Rap." Or that anyone on this thread "hates rap." Personally, I don't know Oprah's emotions about any topic. I would never assume to know what's going on in any celebrity's mind. As for myself, I don't have enough of an understanding of rap to feel much about it one way or another. Music's not my thing, and my latest CD purchase was Carol King's "Tapestry." I don't hate rap, I just don't really pay any attention to it. But, again, why is it that when anyone cricizes rap on this thread, the response is all about "haters"? Why do I hate freedom? Is that your next question? My only point is that Oprah can bloody well pick and choose who she has on her show. Period, end of story. You clearly don't like her show, and, as emily points out, feel that us 40 year old white women don't have anything to offer society, but that doesn't mean that Oprah has to be fair, or promote black men, or be nice to Ludacris, or whatever. She's Oprah, and can do what she damn well pleases. It's not about the relevance of rap, or the welfare of black men, or any of that. I am simply incredibly confused that she's so heavily criticized for not promoting already successful musicians. What is that about? Dave Chappelle Show had a hilarious skit last night, making fun of hip hop. Does that make him "unfair"? He hasn't had the Indigo Girls come perform. Does that make him anti-white chick? Oprah's show is about many things, her magazine is about many things, and her life is about many things. If rap isn't her highest priority, who gives a shit?

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T13:36:34-06:00
ID
72931
Comment

Oprah smack. yeesh.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-12T13:40:53-06:00
ID
72932
Comment

You're right, Emily. The name caliing bothers me too. I can't stand her being called a Queen. Queen of what? Queen of fear or hitting and running. Now, I can see this. I won't call her any more names. I love her, but wish she wouldn't start fights and run. I didn't know that her show was for just women. We men need to pull all advertisement we purchased or allowed to be purchased since we don't count for anything in the eyes of Oprah and her fans as it regards that show. I actually watched and enjoyed the show with the 6 legged dog. No one told me I wasn't suppose to look. Thanks for talking to me. No hard feelings. Rap and hip-hop rule. I hope I have provided some ideas and insight on why Oprah's position is weak. The next time I see a woman I don't like, I'm going to hit her and run. Nothing is wrong with that!?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T13:42:17-06:00
ID
72933
Comment

Ray, I was quoting Fifty Cent on that one who DID say her show is all about white women. Very condescendingly I might add. Bless his heart. I've always wanted to bless 50 Cent's heart.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T13:50:11-06:00
ID
72934
Comment

Thanks Kate. I've been missing you, too. I haven't said anything that shows any hate toward white women or any group or any person. Excepting only Oprah. I don't hate her either. I disagree with her on rap and that all I've been writing about. Now I don't think the interests of white women trumps the interests of everything and everybody else if you're wondering about that. I would object to rappers singling out 40 year old white women just as I would any other group for abuse. I have not, and won't ever condone the abuse of anyone. I believe it was you who mentioned Oprah's audience as 40 year old white woman and I responded to it. I thought everybody liked her, even young people and many males. I'm surprised I have raised so much ire by my position. No hate was ever intended by me. I'm surprised my responses have been seen as hate, but I guess this shows how much Oprah is loved and rappers are hated. I know lots of people who hate rap. I'm not as big a fan as you may think. I'm simply taking a position colliding with most women. I do believe Oprah hates rap but I could be wrong. As soon as I see that I am, I will quickly change my position and apologize if given a chance. Oprah is a celebrity and is fully open to discussion and debate.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T13:57:31-06:00
ID
72935
Comment

Ray, you've changed your argument alot in the past couple of days. First it was: "Why is Oprah fleeing her responsibility to help fix the rap game? Why doesn't she want to help?" Now it's that you wish she wouldn't "start fights and run." The whole thing makes a tiny bit more sense if it's truly about "starting fights and running", which it may or may not be, because, well, that happens alot on interview shows, and I think rappers are generally aware that "life isn't fair". But if it's about Oprah's "responsibility" to "fix the rap game" then it's completely nonsensical.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T13:59:57-06:00
ID
72936
Comment

Kate, the change is in response to what Kamikaze said yesterday. Also, I'm trying to cut off all evenues for Oprah and her fans to escape. I've put more thought into this than you may think. The only thing I wasn't ready for was Donna's monkey wrench making me define haters. I was going to town with a wide definition until she asked me that. I like it when I can go on and on unchalleneged. Some stupid lawyers let me get away with this too.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:07:18-06:00
ID
72937
Comment

Ray, I don't think that interests of white women "trump" everything else. I think Oprah is a businesswoman, who has a talk show and a magazine, that targets a specific audience. I don't see why she's so criticized for not having guests on her show that fall pretty clearly *outside her target demographic*. It's a freakin' business decision, not about the relative worth of rap vs. white women. I don't hear opera singers complaining that they aren't on MTV, for instance. Not every talk show host is required to have guests from all avenues of life, all the time on their show, and "be nice" to them when they do come. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Oprah can do what she wants, her formula is successful, end of story. Why is she so criticized for this?

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T14:10:13-06:00
ID
72938
Comment

Hitting someone and running (physically)? Ray, methinks you dost protest too too much. Surely you aren't resorting to violence to get your point across?

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-12T14:10:24-06:00
ID
72939
Comment

Hitting someone and running (physically)? Ray, methinks you dost protest too too much. Surely you aren't resorting to violence to get your point across?

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-12T14:10:24-06:00
ID
72940
Comment

Also, Kate and Emily, if she has a responsibility to call out wrongs on the part of others as the so-called Quuen, why isn't there a corresponding responsbility to help fix the problems she confronts for the sake of the future of young folks and the rest of us? I bet y'all can't give me a good answer to this.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:11:17-06:00
ID
72941
Comment

Kate, Oprah started this crap by inviting Ludacris on the show to discuss the movie Crash. She then went beyond the movie and attacked him about rap without giving him a chance to respond or without airing it. Clearly she played dirty. Oprah is a ________. She needs to do the right thing.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:15:32-06:00
ID
72942
Comment

Ray, Oprah gets to do that "crap." If he is not a big enough boy to take tough questions about what he does, then maybe he ought to get out of the business. There's nothing dirty here. I'm sorry, that's just absurd.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T14:26:48-06:00
ID
72943
Comment

And, by the way, I'm not an Oprah "supporter." I haven't watched her show in years. I admire what this Kosciusko girl has risen to, and I respect her as a businesswoman. Oprah doesn't need my defense. My comments are simply in response to what I see here. It bothers me quite a bit that there is a culture out there that believes it is above criticism. That is crap.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T14:28:44-06:00
ID
72944
Comment

Thank you Donna. And, Ray, my points from a couple of days ago still stand. Oprah does try to fix some of the problems that she encounters. She spends alot of tiime on women's issues. Which are, in fact, important. Just because she doesn't focus her time in a way that you, personally, think is best, doesn't make her selfish, as you stated a couple of days ago. Also, I don't think she has any more or less responsibility than anyone else to call out and to fix problems. So, why is this discussion about Oprah, and not about sexism in the rap industry? This whole thing smacks of sexism. I hear alot of men complaining about Oprah not using her power to help them. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T14:31:58-06:00
ID
72945
Comment

I should say "subculture" ... for clarity ...

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T14:32:15-06:00
ID
72946
Comment

I don't think rappers believe they are above criticism. They would have to be dumb, crazy, death, and blind to believe that. We all agree that rappers have acted in a very harmful and careless manner with some of their music. Oprah apparently feels this way too, and on one occasion, like a scary-cat, she pawed at one of the rappers while he wasn't ready to respond then ran. If Oprah is serious about attacking or taking on rap, let's do it. Otherwise, she needs to shut up and stick to shows about the housewife who got bitten by ants while working in her garden. Or the lizard that was half rattlesnake. I saw that on her show one time too. What a waste of televison time. Oprah is ....

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:43:58-06:00
ID
72947
Comment

Kate, sexism is wrong. I denounce it. I'll shoot anybody who practice it. Now back to Oprah. What is her problem? Dis he nor read, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It is not proper to do unto others before they do unto you, as Oprah did. She didn't learn this in Kosciusko. I grew up about 20 miles from her. I probably played jacks and marbles with her. Had I any idea she wasn't learning good morals I would hve taught her some myself.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:49:51-06:00
ID
72948
Comment

I meant, did she not read....

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T14:51:48-06:00
ID
72949
Comment

Ray, it's this tendency of yours and other to pass judgment on Oprah as a person that I find most disturbing. She was rude in an interview, and now you're saying she has no morals? And she needs to "shut up"? I don't get it.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T14:54:01-06:00
ID
72950
Comment

I hope I have provided some ideas and insight on why Oprah's position is weak. No, you haven't. You've danced around the issue and claimed that if she's the "Queen" she should fix things. You haven't given us any details. I'm waiting.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-12T14:58:27-06:00
ID
72951
Comment

What's the win again? What trophy are we scrapping for? How is asking a question picking for a fight? Why is she a horrible person for not inviting someone on her show? I've heard rumors that she did not ask THE Best Selling Sweet Potato Queen on her show either, which in my personal opinion would be a GREAT fit, but I could never define Oprah as a horrible human being, or even chicken, for that.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T15:00:26-06:00
ID
72952
Comment

I've heard rumors that she did not ask THE Best Selling Sweet Potato Queen on her show either, Well, that proves it. She's definitely not pandering to middle-aged white women. ;-) Asking a question is not picking a fight. However, as a woman not afraid to ask questions even of those who do not believe they should be questioned, I know how harsh people can be in response. I suspect Oprah cares about as much as I do about the "hate" that comes your way when you dare to question—especially men about the way they treat women. Toughen up, boys. We're here to stay.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T15:11:55-06:00
ID
72953
Comment

Oprah is not horrible. She's a good person with relaxed morals who will hit you in the back of the head and run if she (or her fans) doesn't care for you. She also has that big television show where she invites all manners of people to visit and discuss issues. Some of the people and issues are horrible. Everything is good enough for the show but rap and rappers. My granddaddy told me "you can lead a ... to water but you can't make him drank." Ironghost and so on, I can't make y'all drank, but the water is there waiting on you. Yo can open you eyes and drink whenever you please. Today on Oprah she has a doctor on there discussing why some flies can't fly. I think the headline for the show is: Why are those things called flies if they can't fly? I want to know the answer to this too, so I'll watch.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T15:20:09-06:00
ID
72954
Comment

"Everything is good enough for the show but rap and rappers." Hunh? There's plenty of stuff she doesn't cover, and I don't hear people whining about it. And I seriously don't understand your "she's a good person but..." comment. You've called her a "hater", selfish, amoral and unfair, and yet she's still "a good person"? You can't have it both ways, Ray. All I've heard you accuse her of is "unfairness" in interviewing a highly successful rap artist, who is in a segment of the entertainment industry that invites controversy and is not particularly "fair" to women. Like Ironghost, I don't find your arguments about her particularly compelling.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-12T15:32:32-06:00
ID
72955
Comment

Finally, Oprah will invite you to her house, and if she doesn't like something you've said or done, she will serve food to everybody but you. This isn't right. You don't mistreat your guests. She didn't learn these bad manners in Mississippi. I'm finished with her. Emily, I'm shooting for the pimp's hall of fame. What else could it be? I'm out, and still pimping.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T15:32:58-06:00
ID
72956
Comment

pimp away, Ray. good to know someone is managing the success of working women.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-12T15:58:23-06:00
ID
72957
Comment

Go 'head, Laurel. Personally, I think Ray's pimpin' in more ways than one.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T16:03:52-06:00
ID
72958
Comment

Um, today's show is about managing money and getting rid of debt. With a woman on there helping problem-solve. I haven't seen the flies yet ;) We've got the water this way too. Whenever you're ready. I'm just saying.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T16:17:38-06:00
ID
72959
Comment

EVERYTIME I TRY TO GET OUT....THEY PULL ME BACK IN.....Ive tried to just read..yet again, but I must comment..yet again...Donna we did come to an agreement of sorts mainly because my better half explained to me the finer points of keeping my mouth shut!!! I was off-base in some respects. this IS a two way issue..HOWEVER, Ludacris WAS blindsided and I dont think Tom Cruise or Angelina Jolie would have met the same fate. Though I was a part of that world once, I ABSOLUTELY do not agree with the mantra that any and all questions are "fair". REGARDLESS. Some issues are simply no one's business plain and simple. Im sure if Oprah was on Ludacris' show to talk about her Angel network and he asked her "Why the hell arent you and Stedman married" or.."whats with the rumors that you and G.K. are lovers?" We'd all be up in arms wouldnt we. That would be slightly inappropiate dont ya think?...Easy to tell the rappers to have thick skins and take it like "big boys" when women dont seem to do the same when discussing the "b" and the "h" issue. Why don't ya'll take it like "big girls"? huh? there's just as much inherently wrong with those words as it is with Oprah's blindside IMO. Previously, I could give a sick monkey's a** what Oprah thought but when you make an advance you stand like a man or woman and wait for rebuttal. Dont take the Bill O'Reilly way out by jabbing with your own comments then ending the segment before your guest has a chance to answer...thats chicken-s**t interviewing. LORD knows I wish it was me because we would have stopped talking about CRASH real quick... Bottom line...there is bad in rap... Hell, there is HORRIBLE in rap. There will be more credit cards swiped down more ass*s, Donna...sorry. there's misogyny, violence, materailism etc. ALL THE THINGS THAT EXIST IN THE WORLD TODAY NOT JUST RAP..But in the words of my mother..."NEVER GIVE A FOOL AN AUDIENCE" Focus on the positive and those artists that are doing positive things. support their music, BUY their music, go to their shows. When the other guys are no longer racking up sales, they will change..trust me. ITS ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS..NOT COMMON SENSE!!! hurt their sales and their pocketbooks by paying them no mind and uplifting the good ones!!! We spend too much time focusing on the negative, talk about and accentuate the positive. Lets start a damn thread about the powerful positive rappers and the things they do...And if you dont know em just look...cuz theyre everywhere. this discussion is gettin OLD!!!

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-12T16:17:59-06:00
ID
72960
Comment

Wait, you're going to explain to me again exactly what Oprah asked that was so awful. You're using personal questions as examples. Did she ask Ludacris about his love life? I missed that if so, and I apologize. However, if she questioned him about rap, get over it. That's how he makes a living, and why he's famous enough to go on her show in the first place. And Kamikaze, say the words here as they show up in the rhymes: B!TCH. HO. WHORE. IF IT WALKS LIKE A B!TCH, IT'S A BITCH. Or whatever those brilliants lines y'all use. Actually, I've defended rap and hip-hop mightily despite this juvenile crap that makes money for reasons that are entirely beyond me. Fortunately, I am open-minded enough to see that there is something more to what y'all do than that garbage. And I like many of you and respect what you're trying to do. However, if you don't can't take being disagreed with on this kind of content, you ought to stop doing it because there are many of us women who aren't going to be intimidated out of speaking our minds because y'all think that we shouldn't question you. Ludacris is a big boy. He went on Oprah for publicity. He got asked a tough question. Why insult him by acting like he can't take it? Your last paragraph is so rambling I don't understand it. But I can see that it has nothing to do with anything I'm saying here. Obviously, I know that those things exist outside rap. In fact, I've made that argument on this site more than you have. So don't insult me by trying to change the subject. If the discussion getting old, then leave it. Others may still thing there are some issues on the table that need to be aired it. It's not really about you anyway. You were just the original messinger and started a good talk. Thanks for that.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T16:26:23-06:00
ID
72961
Comment

my last paragraph was NOT rambling...read it again. simply put...Accentuate the positive. Lets not give the FOOLS an audience. when their records no longer chart and the shows dry up...THAT'S when they'll get the picture. Point blank! When we work towards changing some of the blight that these young men and women come from THEN we'll start seeing a change in the lyrics. There are sooo many factors that must manifest themselves before we can change the mere lyrics of a rap song. Personal, social, racial etc. And let me substitute that question above with "Well, Oprah why havent you given back more to your home state?" or "Why is only a small percentage of your guests, regardless of topic African-american" thats more on a business tip is it not...But just as inappropiate to ask without prior prep.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-12T16:34:18-06:00
ID
72962
Comment

I said it already. I agree with doing all that (and it is a little rambling, but I ramble, too). But that's not the issue I'm discussing above, and you seemed to be directing your comments at me. The issue here is that you, and some others, seem to think that Oprah shouldn't have asked Ludacris about rap on her show. If by "accentuate the positive," you mean that men shouldn't be asked hard questions by women (without "prep"), I strongly disagree with you. I think the question about Mississippi is a fine question to ask Oprah were, say, I or you to interview her. And if she whined about getting asked that, I would respond to her in like fashion. Kamikaze, real interviewers and journalists do no prior prep by telling people what they are going to ask them. Consider Oprah a journalist or not, she can do some effective interviews. I would respect her much less if someone told me that she had warned poor witta Ludacris that she was going to ask him a tough witta question about ... DRUM ROLL ... rap. ?!?! You're making him look worse than her here.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T16:38:05-06:00
ID
72963
Comment

I remember having the discussion at a middle aged white woman function in Jackson once...how we wouold LOVE to see a round table. I know I'd just started writing, and Kamikaze was coming on board soon...(Kamikaze....I'm the chick who used to email you thanks from Metrocenter for defending us btw.) I do want to know more about rap. So please, share more with us that's not in defense. And is not an attack. Tell me what it is you want us to know, because I've got to say the BUSINESS is not doing it for ya. And if mysogyny is just a part of rap that I have to accept, then I'll accept that it's not for me and mine and not really something I want to watch on t.v.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T16:39:28-06:00
ID
72964
Comment

And we don't mind being criticized..thats a misnomer. We do rebel music true indeed. we buck against the establishment ,we talk about the taboo. We don't want you to always agree..We dont want you to like us(all the time) LOL However, if you engage us in verbal combat don't throw rocks and hide your hands...Give us our chance for rebuttal. On equal terms..You took your shot at Ludacris on your show, give us a chance to rebut ON YOUR SHOW..thats fair enough right? and thats all I believe we're asking. Ludacris may not be able to articulate it but I sure as hell can. As artists who realize what we do and say(cuz we write it naturally) itll be hard to out-debate us IMO.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-12T16:40:59-06:00
ID
72965
Comment

I actually passed the "never give a fool an audience" quote down to Jill Conner Browne. However, do you think, that maybe, Oprah is thinking the same about oh, say, 50 Cent? Why use her platform to promote something she does not agree with?

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T16:42:00-06:00
ID
72966
Comment

Honestly, it's up to her whether to do that or not. It is Oprah's right to criticize rappers without giving you a forum to respond. You do have your own forums, as you have shown. And I doubt seriously that Oprah's goal is to "out-debate" any of you. Besides, with due respect, your music speaks louder than anything y'all say in interviews. If you want to send good messages, make sure you start with why people listen to you in the first place: your music. It is mighty hypocritical to say one thing in your music and another thing in interviews. You'll get the most respect when the two are consistent.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T16:45:23-06:00
ID
72967
Comment

I agree Donna..my point is...had that been Oprah who had been blindsided with a question..by anyone..the WORLD would have been up in arms..."What disrespect!" "Oprah's an icon" etc. Who gives a damn about the rapper...That's my gripe. Yes Oprah should answer the impromtu questions like anyone else and should be villified if she doesnt or can't. but we know that will never be the case. in fact im sure Oprah gets the questions before any of her interviews. oprah=class, rapper=no class, thats the way some folks see it and that, my friends, is where my problems begin and end.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-12T16:46:25-06:00
ID
72968
Comment

I guess I don't agree with that, not based on what the question was. It's rather silly to argue that one is "blindsided" by a question about the very thing that one does to earn one's celebrity. Some of the other personal questions, sure. But this seems like a paranoid tempest in a teapot to me.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T16:49:29-06:00
ID
72969
Comment

Well I guess that just throws all the good I try to do right out the window LOL. I let my ACTIONS speak for me. Talking to the kids, empowering young folks to vote, unifying artists etc. I've always said that those actions would speak louder than words. thats what I was always told. Cuz anyone who has ever gotten a Kamikaze record will note that i have plenty of records that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's harsh in many places. but I've made no secret of that. I do have positive records because thats where I come from. thats was CROOKED LETTAZ' whole platform. but i rock the clubs and the streets too. All that notwithstanding its not hypocritical at all. Look at all Banner has done through his non-profit. Ludacris, Master P, Yes, even 50 cent.

Author
Kamikaze
Date
2006-07-12T16:52:37-06:00
ID
72970
Comment

I'd love to read more about that in your columns I guess is what I'm saying. I DO want that information. Also, I don't think anyone is all good or all bad. So sure we all do some good things. But it never makes the hurt we create okay. And those lyrics and those images are hurtful. Not to mention are a cheap way to make a buck. I believe most people are better than that. Actions speak louder than words, and actions AND words are even more powerful. Don't say one thing and do another.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T16:59:37-06:00
ID
72971
Comment

A highly respected dean at Jackson State went to college with Oprah at Tennesse State and has practically begged her to come to Jackson State to do anything she likes but Oprah has refused. Tougaloo College has on countless occasions tried to get her as commencement speaker, and she has refused each time. I guess we're not good enough for the quennie. She hates us. Kamikaze, maybe if we/y'all contacted Vinnie Barberina (aka John Travolta) he could talk to the sister for us. Lord knows none of us can. I've seen him on the show about 400 times. Smile. What's up with Oprah? Why a brother has such a hard time getting air time on her show? Just wondering? I guess if we killed somebody she would interview us from prison.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T17:00:24-06:00
ID
72972
Comment

I think rappers should make songs talking about what a phony and coward Oprah is. However, if rappers did that, Oprah and likely most women, would never stop talking about how low down rappers are. Yet quennie can get away with anything because "she's every women" and the "quennie of exemplary womanhood", whatever that is. Emily, I must have seen an old promo. Smile.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T17:11:10-06:00
ID
72973
Comment

Oprah'ers wouldn't say it's low down. We'd say that's said to be so fixated on such a negative emotion. I wonder why someone would harbor such negative energy? Then we'd have group therapy, eat Godiva and drive our SUV's to the mall for shoes. Maybe have a cosmo as well.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-12T17:16:40-06:00
ID
72974
Comment

Another thing. We fellows have been accused of "hitting and running" for decades. Half of the single men now go broke dating women without any success because of misplaced fear women have that men are trying to "hit and run." I spent probably 3 million before I decided to stop dating and just marry. Despite all the self-righteousness about how terrible it is to "hit and run", women are willing to give quennie a free pass to do it. What's up with the confusion? Can we get some straightforwadness?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-12T17:25:47-06:00
ID
72975
Comment

Dating would be another thread, Ray.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-12T17:29:53-06:00
ID
72976
Comment

Wait. How are you defining "hit and run"? And are you positive that it's a parallel thing to what these women you speak of accuse men of doing? How many ways can we say it? On her show, Oprah can ask people anything she wants, short of libeling them. If I were her, I would have asked Ludacris about, uh, what he does for a living and what people say about it. I simply don't understand the hyper-sensitivity that labels that "hit and run." All those things are important, Kamikaze. But you seem to be the one obsessing over what a daytime talk-show host thinks of what you rap about. Which is it? You can't expect to be outspoken in the word, in any form much less a controversial one, without being questioned from time to time.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-12T17:30:40-06:00
ID
72977
Comment

I know it's time to leave this one along. However, hitting and running is wrong in every case except probably war, and some would say it's wrong there, too. Definitions and boundaries slow a pimp down. Pimps aren't used to being asked questions. Once questions are allowed into the game, someone will soon ask whether pimping is moral or legal. Guestions are harmful to the pimp game. I've been getting private off-blog emails saying the pimps won this argument. Some have been women, too. If Oprah is really the baller ladies claim she is, she would have Ludacris and Kamikaze on the show. We pimps wouldn't have a King who was afraid of a fight he started. We know Oprah can do what she did, but it's not right. Pimps don't play like that. Sho Nuff. That's the truth, Ruth.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T08:31:03-06:00
ID
72978
Comment

Definitions and boundaries slow a pimp down. I imagine it's hard to win in court if you let other people define your terms for you, too. I can't see how you won this one, the ladies got ya Ray.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-13T08:59:19-06:00
ID
72979
Comment

Indeed, I try to overpower in court. If I can't do this, I'm screwd considering the hurdles I must overcome. Remember, Ironghost, I took a very long ride before anyone even pierced my armour. Iron, you mean to tell me you think it's fine for quennie to hit a person when he's not looking or ready then run to the principal's office to hide in order to keep the victim from discussing whether it was right to hit and run or hit at all? Release the shackles, Iron, the women have overpowered you. I'm often overpowered by them too, but every now and again I get up and fight like a man. Else they take over. Help us out Iron. We need you.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T09:41:05-06:00
ID
72980
Comment

Oprah did not slap. The question she asked him had everything to do with his job as a performer and the subject of the movie. Instead of "f that bitch," Oprah'ers are chanting "Bless his heart. Bless his heart." She's not a baller. She's the OPRAH. And we all know that getting the last word does not a win make.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T09:41:15-06:00
ID
72981
Comment

Oprah sucker-punched Ludacris and ran like a _____. And I don't mean Queen here. Until now I thought women had this overbearing intuition to be fair. Boy, was I wrong. It's all about winning for women. They'll accept a Queen who is yellow. We pimps can't and won't do that.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T09:50:14-06:00
ID
72982
Comment

Ray, I love you, but you are repeating the same thing over and over again. Please move on. I think this horse is barely breathing at this point.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-13T10:00:05-06:00
ID
72983
Comment

I totally agree it's time to move on. Pimps win.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T10:25:19-06:00
ID
72984
Comment

Cool. Congrats on the big win. (“Once you hear the details of victory, it is hard to distinguish it from a defeat." — Sartre)

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-13T10:31:46-06:00
ID
72985
Comment

I was going to quote someone else, but Sartre will do.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-13T12:24:20-06:00
ID
72986
Comment

That was good and defining, but winners ain't suppose to tell the losers that.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T12:29:07-06:00
ID
72987
Comment

Well, you ain't just any winner. You're a pimp.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-13T12:31:36-06:00
ID
72988
Comment

go team

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-13T13:11:37-06:00
ID
72989
Comment

Ok first of all, Donna is my heroine for the day. I agree with everything she's said, espcially about the fact that rappers seem to have a real issue with a woman questioning the content, even daring to disagree with it, and calling issues they might have to the carpet for the public eye. Even refusing to accept what is offered in rap music because it offends, that seems to be an automatic way of getting a "hater" label. There is clear bullying here. If Montel Williams, if Wayne Brady, if Dave Chapelle had brought up these issues, if they had done the same thing Oprah did, would there be this much, yes emilyb and Donna I agree, "whining" going on in response? I don't think there would. And kamikaze and Ray, by your using the term "pimp" to describe yourselves, all you're doing is encourging the arugment people have against rap. All you're doing is help to perpetuate an anti-female aspect to hip-hop culture. Pimps are horrible people. They beat women, steal their money, and make a living off of their misery and sexual servitude, and do nothing but degrade them. It is one of the reasons why I will never EVER watch "Hustle & Flow". Sympathy for a pimp? That's sympathy for the devil my friends. Oprah does no owe anyone anything on her show. She can choose who to have and who not to have, and she doesnt' have to prep them prior to the interview, and she doesn't have to accept your arguments (which are no convincing to me) about why rap deserves a forum on her show. She doesn't have to like you. She doesn't owe you squat just because she's African-American. That's a bunch of entitled bologna, and the ranting and raving and childish cries of "hater" and "no fair" only belittle your views that rap is this positive thing that just happens to have SOME negative aspects. It seems the more you throw a temper tantrum anytime someone disagrees with you, or shuts you out, espcially if it's someone of your own race, you can't take the heat, and cry foul. All that is doing is making you seem chilidsh and bullish. You want to come out on top? You want to win favor with women? Get a bigger, broader audience? Get Oprah to like you? Stop calling yourselves pimps. Stop shirking the responsibility you have as role models to your youth and claim you're just "reflecting", and start trying to create positive images and concepts within your music. Stop treating women like we're not allowed to say anything bad about your music, or disagree with it. Stop acting like you're entitled to rule whatever domain you set out to conquer. Life doesn't work that way, and hip-hop is not alone in that fact. Y'dig?

Author
Lippy
Date
2006-07-13T14:17:04-06:00
ID
72990
Comment

Everytime I try to quit someone hits me again. Anyway, Bishop Don Juan emailed me earlier wanting to know how he could become a member or poster on this blog. For those who been hiding under a rug, the Bishop is a grille wearing, gold-tooth smiling, pretty suit wearing, and alligator strutting, x-pimp, who found the Lord, and made himself a Bishop. He's better known as Snoop Dog's trusted side-kick. His Lordship wanted to talk to Lippy in particularly. Actually, Lippy I'm not a real pimp, although I can roll, rhyme, and jive like one. I even write and spell like one. Did I spell rhyme right? I even helped expose the pimp game near the end of my posts. I bet you didn't even notice. Hate blinds. Pimps are terrible people, and I have said it many time on this blog under different columns. I'm only playing a pimp here to help open the yellow Queen's eyes. And her fans and supporters. If Dave Chapelle, Montel Williams, Wayne Brady (I saw him killing people on Chapelle for no reason) or any other man had brought up rap and rappers, they would have done it like a real champion - hitting and standing their ground so there could be a real discussion with issues discussed thoroughly. Not waiting until Ludacris' back was turned, hitting and spitting on him, then running like a scalded dog. Oprah doesn't owe us anything. She did even owe women that cowardly lick up beside Ludicris' head, but she did it anyway. Now, since she did it. We demand an apology or to be let back on the show to finish the discussion. But we can't finish the job because she and hes fans and supporters are to chicken to let it happen. We do not want to come out on top. We only want fairness. I hate to say this, but I believe y'll women are afraid Oprah couldn't intellectually handle Kamikaze and Ludacris on the rap game on her show. We can't help it if Oprah doesn't have the cerebral powers to handle rappers in a fair fight. She should have considered that before she thru the first punch. You're doing a good jod Lippy but the store is closed. Sho nuff.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T15:14:56-06:00
ID
72991
Comment

I meant Oprah didn't owe women....

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T15:18:31-06:00
ID
72992
Comment

We demanded the apology first. nanny nanny boo boo. Spit. Claw. Meow. Again, she did not start this. The gauntlet was thrown with the first ho rhyme. I just got an email from Oprah herself and she said, "You mean some rappers are out there talking about me? Oh. Anyway, back to the subject at hand....."

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T15:26:55-06:00
ID
72993
Comment

Had Oprah not hit and run, Ludacris wasn't going to do anything. We all respect Oprah. Ludacris might have said, "move _____, get out the way." Sho nuff. We're too hot to handle. my apology ahead of time, but he said it, not me.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T15:30:51-06:00
ID
72994
Comment

I admit, I understand why a song called "Move b____, get out the way," would make a woman mad. It's disrespectful and disgraceful. This is probably why she hit him in the head and ran. She probably figured he was crazy for making a song like that.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T15:41:42-06:00
ID
72995
Comment

That Ludacris song has convicted me. I can't even fake it any more. He needs an asskicking for that song. All the best to you women.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T16:09:08-06:00
ID
72996
Comment

This is bigger than Oprah...this is about Pimps and Prostitutes. The all men are dogs crowd...versus the all women are saints crowd. And men aren't allowed to talk in these discussions Ray, only women can discuss THESE things. ;) Can you imagine Oprah with Pimps and Prostitutes on her show, Lecturing the Pimps and totally excusing the prostitutes. I know I can. sho nuff......... A lot of women still have trouble discussing the Oldest Profession in the presence of Men. A lot of women don't also.

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T16:41:10-06:00
ID
72997
Comment

JAC, had I thought of that song earlier, I wouldn't have been able to say all the things I did about Oprah. The title of that song alone is horrible. I don't know any of the lyrics, and don't want to know any. My apology to Lippy and all others who didn't know I was mostly faking. You may be on to something JAC, but I will try to stay out of it. If they let me.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-13T17:19:23-06:00
ID
72998
Comment

He's not on to anything. Just more deference. If a woman stands up for herself, she's anti-man of course! DUH! Next we should be told that we are just a bunch of banshees. And JAC, I can talk about the oldest profession, but I can't glorify it or say it's in the best interest of women. If y'all feel you've got to pay for it to get it, or you have to enslave someone to profit from it, that's your short weiner. (which is the logical argument following women are anti-men.)

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T17:22:53-06:00
ID
72999
Comment

Another round of Rap's degradation of women? I'll pass this time.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-13T18:33:33-06:00
ID
73000
Comment

Ray, I never saw too much of a problem with the song except for the expletive in the title and the radio play. Also the word B!tch in the song and title doesn't have to be in reference to a female except in an individuals mind which no one can control. After listening to the song I took it as being in reference too someone being ahead of you in traffic and you are saying Move B!tch, and actually if you listen to the song that is what it is kinda what it is in reference too. Prostitution = Slavery now Emily??? Ever watch HBO?? They have prostitutes on there who do it voluntarilly. Also a lot of women seem to have a problem with the term B!tch and [email protected]! And a lot of women don't. A lot of women will automatically place themselves in that category and some seem to be above that. You same women got mad at Kamikaze when he spoke up on hos, as if hos don't exist, as if he hasn't met any true definitons of ho's in his profession. Some women like to play the every woman role and all that other bs about women can do no wrong, then get upset when men and rappers speak on hoe-dum and what they have experienced. You automatically assumed that my reference to prostitutes above was forced slavery when many of us with common knowledge know that a lot women voluntarily sell a$$. With women like Oprah and some of you it is always the mans fault. No matter what decision some women make a man has to be blamed somwhere down the line according to most of you alls logic, and Oprah is the Queen Ring Leader. I guess it is the "Sins of the Father is passed on to the Son" logic. I feel sorry for all women who have to put up with difficult men in their life especially those that have been molested and had no way out. But that is no reason to spite all men and hold all men to some type of weak feminity a$$ kissing lithmus test. And Oprah was wrong for not inviting Ice Cube on the Show with the cast of Barbershop.

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T18:38:39-06:00
ID
73001
Comment

Again. I love men. Love them. I'd link my column on that, but I'm lazy. And yes, prositution is a form of enslavement when a pimp, or even madam, is involved. She's not in control of her own body. And the money does not go directly to her. Hence, her body belongs to someone else to support her livelihood. I didn't get mad at Kamikaze. I simply pointed out that the "some women are just ho's" statement is just as degrading as "well, some blacks are just niggers." Neither statement makes it okay to use power to put a group that is already down, even further down. You saying I'm mad does not make me mad. You saying I'm, we, or all women does are anything does not make it true. And finally, the feminism movement very gladly and with much effort pushed for civil rights for ALL, especially black people. So your argument that women are just hating all men is tired, uninventive, untrue and will only make your penis smaller.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T20:07:28-06:00
ID
73002
Comment

With that said, I'm going to spend some time with a man who does support women and manages to be successful at the same time. He also is able to hear and take in what women are saying, think about it and dare I say, have some empathy regarding the mistreatment of women. He does not have to prove his manhood by controlling, insulting, harming or any other ill will action towards a woman. That's because he has a big penis. So when y'all don't see me posting, it's not a win for anyone. It's a simple yawn at the horse that has died here.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T20:14:15-06:00
ID
73003
Comment

Oh, I also think ho's and strippers and such degrade themselves and I have equal distate for that behavior. But they aren't the ones on this thread or other threads trash talking a talk show host and other women who speak up for themselves. Meant to say that earlier. Now back to penises.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T20:29:10-06:00
ID
73004
Comment

Here's some lyric sample in case any are not in the know about the Move Bitch song that we should not find a thing wrong with: [Ludacris] OH NO! The fight's out I'ma 'bout to punch yo...lights out Get the FUCK back, guard ya grill There's somethin' wrong, we can't stay still I've been drankin' and bustin' two and I been thankin' of bustin' you Upside ya motherfuckin' forehead And if your friends jump in, "Ohhh gurrlll", they'll be mo' dead Causin' confusion, Disturbin Tha Peace It's not an illusion, we runnin the streets So bye-bye to all you groupies and golddiggers Is there a bumper on your ass? NO NIGGA! I'm doin' a hundred on the highway So if you do the speed limit, get the FUCK outta my way I'm D.U.I., hardly ever caught sober and you about to get ran the FUCK over [Chorus] [Mystikal over second chorus] BITCH! Watch out, watch out, watch out BITCH! Watch out, watch out, watch out, move This is what we're celebrating and supposed to NOT find a problem with? Back up or I'll kill you? Not gonna happen. Get over that. Call women whatever you want. Ho, bitch, golddigger, man-hater, crazy, doesn't matter. Women like me, and there's lots of us, are sick as shit of it.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T20:39:58-06:00
ID
73005
Comment

There only words emilyb, merely reflecting ones feelings at the time they are said and expressed at that moment. I'm sorry that women like yourself carry their feelings on their sleeves over MUSIC, and take it to some type of an extreme! I feel that a lot of the stuff really shouldn't be on the radio and on display on the TV but rappers do have the right to say what they want to say. There are Company Executives determining what rappers get radio play and those that do not to the People or the Record Exec. to make the determination of what will get radio play only do to the that the present form of rap is so prevalent on the radio in the 1st place you seem to have misplaced anger at the rappers and not the people that actually controls whether said rapper gets radio play or not. I think all this is off the subject though....... -----"well, some blacks are just niggers."----- Depends on what your interpretaion/definition of the word is young lady, as is your interpretaion of a rapper using the words B!tch and Hoe! :) Also, i'm not a criminal, pedophile, Thief etc. and I don't defend them either! Enslavement vs women willingly selling or giving up the ass to multiple partners are two different things. I hope we can get that established atleast. I understand you are a strong woman and you like big penises you just have a problem with "small words" that rappers use, we all have our peeves. And you are not a hoe but you just defend them b/c they are women. YET! You state that: -----"Oh, I also think ho's and strippers and such degrade themselves and I have equal distate for that behavior. ------ Perhaps, you just don't like it discussed by rappers or men in general maybe.... Like I said it has become a closed discussion that only women can discuss....

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T21:57:46-06:00
ID
73006
Comment

Sorry that 1st attempt of a paragraph should read. There only words emilyb, merely reflecting ones feelings at the time they are said and expressed at that moment. I'm sorry that women like yourself carry their feelings on their sleeves over MUSIC, and take it to some type of an extreme! I feel that a lot of the stuff really shouldn't be on the radio and on display on the TV but rappers do have the right to say what they want to say. There are Company Executives determining what rappers get radio play and those that do not. There are other factors that determine the content of what gets played on the radio in the 1st place you seem to have misplaced anger at the rappers and not the people that actually control whether said rappers song gets public radio play or not. I think all this is off the subject though.......

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T22:03:24-06:00
ID
73007
Comment

JAC, are you insulting her? That's very iffy on reading it.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-13T22:13:26-06:00
ID
73008
Comment

It's not off-subject. I blame them too :) I'm an equal-opportunity blamer. I get pissy with the white suburban men and boys who are the ones buying and supporting the music as well. Why do you think it's getting radio play? Because we as a culture are buying into it and it's got to stop. And words are more powerful than y'all give them credit for. The Bible is just words. Words are very powerful. Otherwise you wouldn't say "women like (myself) carry my feelings on my sleeve over just my words up there. JAC, I wish there was a way to express to you, and others who don't get what lots of women are saying, is that we are HARRASSED by people using those words. We don't get promoted to jobs because of those mindsets. We are in a lower position economically. We got the vote LAST. How do we get some to understand that there is something WRONG when a sixth grade girl rides her bike down the road, and some boys yell, "Hey! We want some pussy!" I know as a sixth grader I felt shamed and low as dirt. That's ONE example of what women endure. No, all the blame is not on rappers. But there is NO excuse for those lyrics up there. It would be inexcusable no matter what. He just happens to be a rapper. And is Oprah obligated to cater to someone who writes and promotes words such as that? Nope. I can't estabish that prostitutes do so willingly. Not when they are beaten and hurt for not doing what someone wants them to do. Read the crime reports on that stuff, and don't just depend on HBO to educate you on that dynamic. And racist white folks will also tell you that some slaves liked being slaves. Doesn't make it right. And when hos and strippers are celebrated for what they do, I'll address that behavior then. From what I've read here, and in the lyrics, the hos aren't getting the pats on the back like the men do for the behavior. I believe Ludicris feels entitled to beat them.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T22:22:40-06:00
ID
73009
Comment

----With that said, I'm going to spend some time with a man who does support women and manages to be successful at the same time. He also is able to hear and take in what women are saying, think about it and dare I say, have some empathy regarding the mistreatment of women. He does not have to prove his manhood by controlling, insulting, harming or any other ill will action towards a woman. That's because he has a big p****. In respoonse to -----the controlling, insulting, harming ect. ------ that you posted above Perhaps that is your dictionary definition Pimp, but it doesn't always correlate with what would always be considered as such in HIPHOP as I think also was your narrow definiton of the word "Nigger" above as taken from Websters they have a narrow scope of the word also from what I always learned: Main Entry: nig·ger Pronunciation: 'ni-g&r Function: noun Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger 1 usually offensive; see usage paragraph below : a black person 2 usually offensive; see usage paragraph below : a member of any dark-skinned race 3 : a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons usage Nigger in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry. I do understand Nigger as the racial epithet used to demean Blacks like myself, but I have also understood it to be defined as any ignorant person! White or Black etc. Seems someone took that out of Websters now though. (Surprised!!) You do seem to be in the same boat as Oprah commenting on things in which you no nothing about Oprah doesn't appear to know jack about hiphop nor the slang that is used in it either. You don't have to tell me the requiste for big a pe_nis baby that is not my interest, I won't digress any further. I'm sure he is a good fella though! : )

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T22:27:40-06:00
ID
73010
Comment

And I'm LOVING the Oprah google ads on the side here.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-13T22:28:52-06:00
ID
73011
Comment

Ironhost, I wasn't meaning that as an insult I was making a correlation between the word N** as used above substitute it for "criminal" was emilyb referring to blacks as ni** or using the word to mean ignorant. I don't know that is why I said substitute it for "criminal". I also spoke on that in my other post above. I don't jump up and down to defend all black criminals as I don't jump up and down to defend some ignorant black people. Just because I am Black. emilyb Empathy towards and for women, I am all for that. I am even collecting some duckets from a woman co-worker tommorrow she needed to pay a bill that was $200 and doesn't have a debit/credit card so she asked to use mine and she would pay me back on the spot and she did ...I inturn know that she has financial difficultys and was/is going through a rough patch decided that I would loan her $100 of her $200back and she could just pay it to me next week (tomorrow). B/c I know that she is a good woman/person and I have no problem helping such a person. I could go on further about wanting to round up the fellas and throw a potato sack over her husbands head for something that he did but that is someone else business at the moment and I won't dwell further into it. But I do have a lot of compassion for women. I think you are right on many aspects and I empathize with the situaition that kids face in this world with the 100mph advertising and music and such also, and girls that grow up with low values systems due to the things and people around them. It is a uphill battle to put this genie back in the bottle and I consider myself rather progressive on these type of issues but we do need some common decency Public Airwave Laws so that some of these things shouldn't be so accesible to children. A lot of this music used to be considered underground and that is really where it should have stayed!! And many men fall into the ho category these days also I guess it is just a bad adult word here. Nobody say it anymore...it's the new N word at the JFP. No one said Oprah or anyone here was a ___ just that she shouldn't spite rappers for using the words, have the cast of A movie on her show and don't invite the Producer/Actor just b/c he is a Hip Hop Artist. When she has had IMO much worse people on her show.

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-13T23:18:47-06:00
ID
73012
Comment

JAC writes: And many men fall into the ho category these days also I guess it is just a bad adult word here. Nobody say it anymore...it's the new N word at the JFP. I don't believe in "hos." There are people who have lots of sex and people who don't, people who show lots of skin and people who don't, people who talk or dance dirty and people who don't, and there is not necessarily any connection between or among any of the three categories. "Bitch," "slut," and "ho" are words used to put women "in their place." Period. That's what they're for and that's how they're used. For a man to use any of those words pejoratively or dismissively to refer to a woman is absolutely no different from a white using the N-bomb pejoratively or dismissively to refer to a person of color, and the fact that men don't get this bothers the hell out of me. Cheers, TH

Author
Tom Head
Date
2006-07-14T02:06:50-06:00
ID
73013
Comment

As for the song Emily posted the lyrics to: Yeah. Scary as hell. Scary as hell that anyone would think Oprah should have Ludacris or Mystikal on her show, ever, period, under any circumstances, after they recorded that violent, misogynistic crap. That would be like inviting Richard Barrett and Tut Patterson to address the state NAACP. Oprah is pro-woman. Deal with it. She does not need to deal with misogynistic losers. They don't deserve the publicity, and they're not worth her time. A wonderful activist named Audre Lourde once said that there is no hierarchy of oppression. I agree. Commitment to antiracism does not require me to condone the violent subjugation of women, and the music that celebrates it. Ludacris, Mystikal, P. Diddy, and everyone else who has celebrated the oppression and exploitation of women are to my way of thinking morally indistinguishable from Klansmen, and should be treated accordingly. Cheers, TH

Author
Tom Head
Date
2006-07-14T02:12:54-06:00
ID
73014
Comment

JAC, I really believe that if "women like me" as your words have thrown me into this box, were educated on hip hop etymology in a way that is not so insulting to us, you would find that women like me are more accepting than you give us credit for. The original column discounted women like me as just "housewives." Not a good way to sway an opinion. And yes, I am the one who ran her mouth when the women of Spellman were insulted for standing up for themselves. Because it was wrong to diss THEM for standing up for their values/beliefs. When you're throwing out things sounding like "all you white women" and such, we just get all defensive-like. You are also putting words in my mouth. You do not know how I define nigger. You really don't. You've made an ass of umption (which is my favorite saying I learned teaching inner city kids) on lots of things that I'm not going to address point by point. I also wouldn't categorize all jfp'ers by my big mouth ;) That's also a tactic some racist white men have used over here to discount some truths, and I know you are better than that. I LOVE what you are doing with the woman and her bill. I've been there, and that is a life-saver. I want to just hug your neck for that. I also can't wait for the day that women are in a better position to pay their own bills themselves. I'd also like to hear MORE positive stuff like that, and less hate. And not inviting Ice Cube, if as you described it is true, IS stupid. I don't even think of Barbershop without Ice Cube. THAT I can see as a true diss.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T08:14:33-06:00
ID
73015
Comment

Oh, and I was referring to WHITE PEOPLE saying nigger. I'm a white chick and here them say it. "You've got your blacks, then you've got your niggers." MAKES ME NUTS! :)

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T08:16:53-06:00
ID
73016
Comment

Fascinating. And people wonder why I don't defend TODAY's rap music by certain artists. That's why I wasn't excited about Three6Mafia winning an Oscar, having heard most of their music before "Its Hard Out Here for a Pimp", songs with lyrics that would make my foul-mouth uncle blush.

Author
Jeff Lucas
Date
2006-07-14T08:48:48-06:00
ID
73017
Comment

Why the hell are y'all still up at the early a.m. hours? JAC, did you tell me once you went to Tougaloo, too. You sound like it. We're not afraid, but we try to do what is right. I think we can all agree that rappers have gone way too far with words and images. And too much of these words and images have focused on women or females, the persons who carried and nurtured them. And the persons many of them want by thire sides as they spew these evil lyrics. I would be afraid to even think many of the things they unhesitantly say these days although I was considered daring for my times. It seems there is a contest among rappers to see who can stoop the lowest. While in college, my friends and I competed constantly, physically (sports) and mentally. I won the verbal game most of the times by being quick-minded and stooping the lowest. Despite that defect in character, I'm probably the most respected and liked member of the group now. I'm not this way now because I was the lowest or the quickest. I'm this way because later (not very late or too late) in life, after growing up some, I realized my errors and went back and apologized secretly to everyone of the them. Most of them don't even know that I've done it. Someone remarks all the time, I can't believe so and so isn't still mad at you. I've said over and over again that I believe Oprah could do alot to deal with this hurtful situation. She's obviously quite aware of it. She hit Ludacris and left him voiceless because of the way she feels about the situation. She treated Cube dismissively also because of her feelings about the situation. Perhaps her thinking is that she will, in turn, treat them like shit. Finally, I'll admit I might be a little hypersensitive about the hitting and running thing. It happened to me many times in elementary school. Some of the time I wasn't quilty of feeling on them or trying to look under their dresses. A couple of times I was totally innocent.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T08:58:31-06:00
ID
73018
Comment

Lippy and emilyb, y'all are my heros today. Why in heaven's name would Oprah host anyone on her show that writes lyrics like that? Someone way upthread referenced Leonard Pitts column from earlier this week, which I also found enlightening. You just can't buy respect. And, truly, if you write a bunch of songs demeaning to women, you've lost my respect. And, apparantly, Oprah's. Deal with it. And, as to the notion that "ho's and bitches exist" and "we're just reflectiing the culture", I would point you to the transcript of last sunday's Speaking of Faith, especially this part: One of the things that I think about when I think about this body of music, I realize that it was the foundation for most other American music, you know? And this music has changed the face of music in the 20th century. And the story behind the creation of the spiritual, really, it's a miraculous story. Normally, when you hear the story of African-American music in a documentary or something, you go back to Ella Fitzgerald or Louis Armstrong. And I say, "Well, that's great. But if you really want to know the story behind the story, find out who Louis' grandmother was and what she was singing. What were the songs he learned when he was a baby and what were the messages of those songs?" And the thing that we find is that in the midst of all of the most horrible pain, some of these powerful individuals lived transcendent, shining lives. They were able to rise up above. I mean, they were able to be loving and forgiving in the midst of it all. Mammy was taking care of master's baby. It was mammy, not master's wife, that was nursing that little baby. Mammy could have poisoned the child. She could have smothered the child. But she loved that child like it was her own child because there was something in her faith that said, "You're supposed to be loving. You're supposed to be kind. You're supposed to be forgiving, and there's no excuse if you are not." We have songs like — the interesting thing, you don't find mean-spirited sentiments in the spirituals. They're the most noble sentiments. Now, you find a song like this: "It's me, it's me, it's me, oh, Lord, standing in the need of prayer." (singing) "It's me, it's me, it's me, oh, Lord, standing in the need of prayer." Not my brother, not my sister. Not the preacher, not the deacon, not the doctor, not the lawyer. Not the master? Wait a minute! These are people who were victims. They were in the midst of the most horrible situation, but they said, "I'm taking responsibility for who I am today, and it's me standing in the need. I'm the one that has the proud heart today. Come and fix me." Music can reflect, or it can help us transcend our existence. Personally, I find music that helps inspire to greatness more to my taste than songs (of any genre) that demean me.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-14T09:34:59-06:00
ID
73019
Comment

I understand, Kate. However, I have no respect for the concept or idea of Mammy raising master's child as a result of slavery. After all, that child grew up to become a sorry bastard like master who hated Mammay and her kids and kinds. Mammy was screwd over in every way imaginable. The children and descendats of master should never stop thanking the children of Mammy for what Mammy sacrificed and did for them. But they never have thanked Mammy or her children. Racism won't even let many of them consider it. I listen to gospel music quite frequently as I ride around with my wife or in the other car. The radio in my truck doesn't work, and I'm too cheap and lazy to fix it. I also listen to lots of jazz and reggae when I can. I'm convinced we are what we think or think about. If you have bullsh!t running through your mind and ears constantly you will probably turn out to be bullsh!t. This is why I don't listen too much to bullsh!t. Not all rap is bullsh!t. I knew there was hatred for rap beyond just the criticism and degrading of women. I'm not saying the hatred is unjustified or wrong. I'm not saying it right either. But I'm saying much of the hatred is still hidden or suppressed.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T09:53:12-06:00
ID
73020
Comment

Tougaloo wasn't me Ray.....I'm JSU all the way. I think if some of this anger was channeled at the powers that be, and the parents who aren't active enough in their childs lives to even know what their kids have access to and listening too. Their seems to be a lot skirting of responsibility going on with a lot of so-called parents these days and no one is really getting to the root of these problems. There does seem to be a need for parents to adjust the way they raise their kids these days, b/c I do understand that it is hard for parents to shield their kids from the negative images they are bombarded with daily it seems that their are some unseen factors that Keep people in a constant spat of finger pointing at the wrong people. It seems that the powers that be that allow the negative mysoganisitc language on TV and radio have no problem with it and will do at the expense of everyones kids.

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-14T09:59:05-06:00
ID
73021
Comment

I might add, we live in a new day. Young blacks, and indeed no blacks, are going to look to, cater, defer, or seek a white master or mentor to tell them what they should do or shouldn't. I give white folks no credit for the pain and horrow heaped on black folks which supposedly inspired black folks to write great spirituals, create the blues, or learn to handle great pain. What offer is not credit. And I could write a book on this. Now, I like Kate, and am sure she meant no harm by posting those excerpts, however, I'm offended by the nut who originally wrote it.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T10:08:22-06:00
ID
73022
Comment

Ray, I'm offended that the situation was there. I'm offended at the bastard master. I'm offended at the buying and selling of HUMANS. I'm offended way beyond that at the system. However, I admire the hell out of a woman who was down that far (and it's a horrible feeling) to maintain a spirit of love and forgiveness instead of throwing the same horrid spirit back. I think there's way more power in keeping the faith and spirit of love than being blinded by anger. And Ray, I downloaded an Franklin/Staples "Oh Happy Day" that brought me back to Jesus the other day. I wish I was savvy enough to send it to you. And you're right JAC. Parents who don't know what's in their childrens closets are slackers and just as guilty. I would whoop Monkey's butt for owning anything so hateful, and he knows it too. His Monkey self already has discernment on what's appropriate and what's not. And I don't present it as a "that's that crap black music," I present it as "How do you think that makes a woman feel?" Then try to offer him a similar beat with not so degrading lyrics. Of course, I'll have to keep relying on someone else to point me in the right direction or he'd only hear Lauren Hill ;)

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T10:26:38-06:00
ID
73023
Comment

I might add, we live in a new day. Young blacks, and indeed no blacks, are going to look to, cater, defer, or seek a white master or mentor to tell them what they should do or shouldn't. Ray that is kinda where I was coming from when emilyb posted the: "well, some blacks are just niggers." comment that word has no effect on me. My definition of a nigger may be: "Someone who uses the word in a derogatory manner to refer to someone else." And that is what has taken place in HipHop also, a change in the heiarchy and meaning of language and certain words as they are used in HipHop and those that follow it so if you are on the outside looking in then things may seem black and white but HipHop is not all black and white their are multitudes of meanings and definitions of the words that are used in HipHop along with the different colors of people that follow HipHop....This is why a lot of it started getting radio play in the 1st place as was the case of the Slave Songs during that era their were those that understood those songs to mean one thing and then their was those understood those songs to mean something totally different. Radio Play! Radio Play! Yes the Big CEO's are more concerned with the bottom line and keeping the shareholders happy! Yes we all are reaping what we have sewn! What a tangle web we weave when we get caught up in Greed! This is the reflection of the society and the corrupt nature of it you guys can blame hiphop all you want but these seeds were sewn long before hiphop came into the picture! HipHop Lyric: It's hard to understand where I coming from if you on the outside talking $hit looking in then again if you was on the inside looking out 9 times out of 10 you would probably be my friend! (HipHop)

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-14T10:48:29-06:00
ID
73024
Comment

I love "Oh Hppay Day" too. I have heard it proably hudreds of times. I love gospel music because of the mindset it offers. I also love Dennis Brown and Bob Marley (reggae) because of the issues they sung about. As far as I'm concerned, their music is gospel too. I can say the same about Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Luther Vandross, the Eagles, and many more artists. The rappers need to clean up their act for themselves and mankind. I'm all for cleaning it up, but I will never be for the idea that white people or rich people know what's best for us or rappers. You see, I have looked into too many of these people's closets, and have seen more hidden and obvious trash in there than most black folks even know exist. I won't even mention the deception and fraud of the same. I too will claim Emily and Donna as heroes for today, yesterday, and many more days, for trying to do the right thing. I believe they're making great efforts to see the whole picture without any illusions. I don'k feel like I know the other women posting well enough to reach the same conclusions about them yet. I suspect Lippy is young, and if she is, then I praise her even more for noticing and tackling the rap issue with great talent and poise. Obviously, JAC knows a lot about the issues too.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T11:05:20-06:00
ID
73025
Comment

Interesting discussion in my absence. The only thing I will point out is that some people here are not listening very carefully to what others are saying, and that's weakening the outcome. I will only say one thing on it today: I've beem told all my life by white people that the societal problems of black people are not my problems, that "they" need to learn to solve them for themselves. I have rejected that premise, choosing instead to listen, participate and help reverse the result of what's in white folks' closets in whatever small ways I can. Those white folks can kiss my white butt. Likewise, when black people tell me that efforts to degrade (their?) women is not my business, they can likewise kiss my butt. I'm equal opportunity on that point. I say that with respect for everyone posting here. Carry on, all.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-14T11:12:15-06:00
ID
73026
Comment

Has anyone heard the song "Crazy B****" by Buck Cherry? It's a new rock song, about a guy who keeps an obiously disturbed girl on the chain because she's so good in bed. I'm toning it down considerably. It's obnoxious in the extreme. Musically and vocally, however, it is probably one of the best rock songs I've heard in a long, long time. It is really, really good. So that's a tough lesson for me. I used to think that it made no sense that people could actually like music with lyrics as obnoxious as (for example) many rap lyrics are. And usually lyrics that bother me make it hard for me to want to listen to a song. But here I have a song that I like listening to, despite how obnoxious I think it is. So I guess if the music is good enough, something inside me responds to that, despite what my sensibilities are saying. Ack.

Author
GLB
Date
2006-07-14T11:18:06-06:00
ID
73027
Comment

GLB's post reminds me of a music professor I studied with who was from Sarajevo in Bosnia. She studied traditional village songs and loved that music but there was one song style which got taken up by some of the Serbs during the war and it became used as a kind of rallying war cry. she said she couldn't hear that song anymore without thinking of the war. It is easy not to listen to lyrics or to say "music is just music": but down deep I think we need to hear what the music is saying and note how it is used and think about that. take responsibility for that.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-14T11:25:17-06:00
ID
73028
Comment

GLB's post reminds me of a music professor I studied with who was from Sarajevo in Bosnia. She studied traditional village songs and loved that music but there was one song style which got taken up by some of the Serbs during the war and it became used as a kind of rallying war cry. she said she couldn't hear that song anymore without thinking of the war. It is easy not to listen to lyrics or to say "music is just music": but down deep I think we need to hear what the music is saying and note how it is used and think about that. take responsibility for that.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-14T11:25:17-06:00
ID
73029
Comment

whups on double posting sorry

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-14T11:25:51-06:00
ID
73030
Comment

Wonderful things do occasionally happen as a result of terrible situations (the point I think Kate was trying to make). I got the point right off the bat but didn't like how it was presented to us. I often overlook presentation for the greater good. I didn't do it here to make sure there's no illusions about how badly Mammy and her family were treated and ignored. Often bad things happen as a reslt of abuse or evil. We know this, and can't do bad and expect good.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T11:27:32-06:00
ID
73031
Comment

Thank you Ray. Because I've got to say it's SCARY running my mouth sometimes. You're right on there. It IS intimidating to block the "hater" thing then the "anit-man" thing. It gets so predictable to me that I laugh and start talking penises. Because it's just as logical. If speaking out immediately equals anit-man, then ant-woman immediately equals small penis. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ;) And for the record, I now think JAC must have a big one too under there. Thanks for listening to me now. Although you did misquote me up there. I didn't ever tell you my definition of that word. I just said the inflection of the argument is the same inflection as some who try to justify hatred towards black people. GLB, I hear you! I LOVE LOVE LOVE Ice Cube's "you can do it." LOVE IT! However, I do think the powers in that song are equally balanced. And no one is chained up or put down. Okay, now that I think about it, that song you are listening to GLB. It's trash. Throw it out. It will make your penis smaller if you keep listening to it. But go get that Ice Cube song. It's fabulous. And I promise not to let my kid hear it.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T11:33:04-06:00
ID
73032
Comment

GLB, rappers are acutely aware of what you just said about sound. The sound often blinds us to the lyrics. They're not as dumb as they look. they also know the lyrics will hook others.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T11:33:20-06:00
ID
73033
Comment

And ohhhhh JAC.....those lyrics you posted....women feel the same way :) Please don't say we are categorizing all of anything, including hip hop, because we are standing up for ourselves.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T11:35:18-06:00
ID
73034
Comment

I also hope the person who wrote the piece that Kate presented talked too about the entitlements master deceptively thought he possessed, and master's lack of humanity, real love, and respect for Mammy and her family. I also hope mater's lack of faith and blindness by racism were discussed. Otherwise, what typical and phonny crap still being written and taught by some people. I would also like to know if the author was southern or conservative, or just blind, crazy or dumb.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T11:51:58-06:00
ID
73035
Comment

"To be a pimp means that the possibility of slapping, beating or otherwise assaulting a woman is just a look or a word away. This valorization of violence sits at the center of the current image of the rapper. And many rappers are being turned out by an industry that is invested in keeping Black men in the role of violent-prone sexual predator." I don't know how to make the secret special link, but it's here: http://www.seeingblack.com/2005/x042905/spittin_acid.shtml Addresses the artist, the producer, the consumer and the ramifications if the pimp continues to be glorified. And it ain't looking to good for anyone...men or women. Just the guy pocketing the money at the end of the day.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T11:53:22-06:00
ID
73036
Comment

Ray, I love that you addressed "entitlement." That's exactly what I think of when people critisize the poor's (code for black most of the time. you know those gov't depedent folks....) sense of entitlement. Oh the irony there.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T12:05:33-06:00
ID
73037
Comment

I totally agree with the terrible pimp imagery that rappers have embraced. Lippy almost rendered me speechless when she confronted me with that. I started to give in right then and there. But playing a pimp required I proceed onward as if I can't see or hear.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T12:40:07-06:00
ID
73038
Comment

Emily, what an article? The situation, if true, is much worse than I thought. Why didn't Oprah slap his ass for real and run? Or perhaps get Nelly on the show and kick him in the balls and run.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T12:58:04-06:00
ID
73039
Comment

I started reading the article that you posted emilyb haven't finished yet but from reading the 1st few paragraphs, I think some rappers are given way too much credit for being spokesman for HipHop, I mean the majority of rap these days is bread out of BS male macho posturing which is why I have to wonder why some of their most vulgar lyrics are given so much credence by some people. They seem to be an easy target. Would you like them to stop writing down their feelings or lyrics or would you rather target the people that give them the forum to spew what they spew! A lot of them are some straight up comical CHARACTERS at times but it never stops many of them from having an endless supply of groupies and girls. Know one wants to touch on all the societal factors that lead us to believe what we believe and say what we say. I've never seen an in depth study nor forum on the societal factors that leads young blackmen and women down the paths of low-esteem, self-worth, and value. I also have never seen a study on why this attracts many other teens of different racial backgrounds. I think it would expose too many Institutional Societal problems that not too many are ready to deal with. So they obfuscate.

Author
JAC
Date
2006-07-14T13:06:11-06:00
ID
73040
Comment

Agreed JAC. We are all guilty for turning a blind eye to it or for profiting from it...but it is institutional societal problems. Absolutely. Keep reading though. I think he blames everyone. Except for of course I would include the white folks up in there too. We do not have clean hands there. I know too many "good country people" who made a habit of "putting their women in their place." But when I did read to towards the end, I was SHOCKED EVEN MORE by some of the lyrics. Yes, I understand a persona. But what the article is saying is that this "persona" has bled into our mainstraim culture, and it's very risky for it to become less of a persona and more of an ideal to obtain.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T13:11:46-06:00
ID
73041
Comment

And damn Dre and Snoop Dogg! I think they are hilarious, and I so want to love them more. I think they have used a system that was meant to keep them down to build them up and I admire that. But what they've done to the women to get there is just wrong. And yes, what the women have done in the videos and other is just as wrong, but Dre and Snoop have the power here to fix it.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T13:15:06-06:00
ID
73042
Comment

JAC, I would love to see something done on this too. I must admit that living where I live doesn't allow me to daily see many institutional and societal problems that are rapped about.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T13:15:39-06:00
ID
73043
Comment

Snoop Dogg is a damn heathen. I'd be shocked to see his sorry butt do anything good. I believe his crazy-butt does hate women. He told us all one night, "I don't love them hoes." I beleieve him. Dr. Dre was likely fronting to get over.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T13:18:52-06:00
ID
73044
Comment

I remember reading about Dre and his family once and was really impressed. That was late 90's I think. Right around when Snoop was hitting Girls Gone Wild, which is another beef altogether. I've got to say that the Orbit commercials where Snoops "hell" is some older white women was quite offensive. Damn orbit and Snoop and the smiley blonde girl next to him.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T13:33:50-06:00
ID
73045
Comment

Oprah, who is too chicken to play a real role in fixing it, should invite on her show Dr. Dre, the orininal rappers (Sugar Hill Gang, Grandmaster Flash and Furious 5, etc.), Big Willie, Kanye, David Banner, Kmikaze, Nelly, Mystical (after he gets out) and many more rappers for a week or so shows and confront it. Oprah has the venue, power, and hate to pull it off. Then at the end of the show, she can pretend to hug Nelly and Snoop dog then instead kick both in the groins. Women around the country and world would be so happy that they would collectively pay the judgements from the law suits that Oprah would owe. If women can be this happy for Oprah hitting and running, imagine the estacy and joy of seeing Oprah kick two rappers in the groins.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T13:34:12-06:00
ID
73046
Comment

Ray, go listen to the radio show and/or read the transcript. You're getting way too hung up on his example of 'Mammy' not killing. There's alot more to the interview, which you'd see if you read it all, or even read what I posted. The point that the interviewee was making was how remarkable it was that such transcendent music came from the most awful circumstances. The point that I was trying to make is that it is possible to create transcendent music during difficult times, and that just because "ho's and bitches" exist, doesn't mean that Oprah has to host people who sing about beating the crap out of them on her show. And, I'm not here as a "white person" trying to tell "black people" how to live. I'm telling you that Oprah, as a woman, can choose not to host Rap artists on her show, and that she might have legitimate reasons for her stance. I don't care about the "other" reasons for "hating" "rap." I am simply trying to point out that Oprah is perfectly justified in not wanting people who promote misogyny on her show. As for me, I can't separate lyrics from my enjoyment of a song, so I don't understand how people can enjoy hated inspired music. And, before I get beat up for indicting all of rap, yes, I am aware that not all of rap is misogynistic. I understand that misogynism is present in all forms of music, and in all forms of expression.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-14T13:37:09-06:00
ID
73047
Comment

Kate, I read what you posted more than once and do/did understand it. I understand all that you just posted. I got the same from the article. I also see what wasn't written because I'm not shallow. If I read the rest of it I would probably see other omissions and spins. Believe me I got the moral of the story. I even believe black folks, poor folks, and others in dire predicaments, can do good things from bad circumstances. I'm a personal witness and example to this. I can also read beyond what is written and said, and not necessarily be wrong because I don't have a narrow perspective of what I see, read or hear.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T13:51:22-06:00
ID
73048
Comment

Ray, can you explain to me what was so offensive about what I posted? I'm looking for it, and I don't see it. As emilyb pointed out, it's not condoning slavery, or asking black people to look to white mentors, or anything of that. I'm saying that the notion that rappers write about "bitches and ho's" because that's "real" is a weak argument. There are other things to write about, and to aspire to, no matter how awful the circumstances of one's life. The interviewee was talking about the incredible inspiration he took, from knowing the horridness that these people were living, while still trying their hardest to act with love and kindness. something in her faith that said, "You're supposed to be loving. You're supposed to be kind. You're supposed to be forgiving, and there's no excuse if you are not." I find that message rather humbling, personally.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-14T13:54:00-06:00
ID
73049
Comment

By the way, I'm not saying any of you are wrong; I'm saying I disagree with you. Who know who's right or wrong. Some agrees with y'll and some agrees with me.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T13:54:19-06:00
ID
73050
Comment

I understand Kate. I have seen countless well-intended people do, write, and say things meant one way but easily offending others because of it's spin, incompleteness, or tunnel vision. This is all I can say about it. I know you meant nothing negative or mean about it. i'm not even criticizing you. I'm criticizing the author of the piece. There is a long history in the south, and in this antion, of discussing matters pertaining to slavery and black folks without telling the whole story. I would love to see the whole piece or column to see if I wrongly criticized it or the author.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T14:02:06-06:00
ID
73051
Comment

Oprah is airing reruns now. Pitch it to her Ray. Now would be the prime time to get in for next season :) But I want a groin kicking much like the bitch slapping described in the above article. Not really. That's tongue-in-cheek before anyone goes saying she's hating men again :)

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T14:06:14-06:00
ID
73052
Comment

Ray, that's why I linked to the whole piece. Everything that everyone says is spin, in some way or another, because it reflects their own world view. I found this piece very interesting because of it's 'spin'. It highlighted what a complete freakin' miracle the existence of these songs is. And that the notion that we should ALL try to live with love and kindness no matter what the circumstances is incredibly powerful. Musicians don't have to create songs about beating up women, and Oprah doesn't have to host the ones that do on her show.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-14T14:08:08-06:00
ID
73053
Comment

You're right, Kate, but.... Emily re-runs have more clout or worth than the wrongs rappers do, or the cleaning up of the rap game in Oprah's eyes. If she really cared about y'all she would do something really real. I'm beginning to question whether y'all Queen really cares about y'all at all. How can she read an article like the one Emily posted and yet settle for hitting a rapper and running. Y'all need another Queen. Oprah is faking. She ain't real. Sho nuff.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T14:14:30-06:00
ID
73054
Comment

Also, if rappers are shooting thru the front door trying to gun y'all down, what good is it doing you to shoot out the back door then claiming you're trying to stop the rappers from killing you. This is what Oprah and many of you are doing. Fellows, y'all might want to start writing some of this stuff down. It's too good to live only once. Sho Nuff. Now I'm cooking. Oprah is all about the money. She ain't trying to strike any blows for womanhood. You don't do that by running! Juxtapose Oprah to all the great women who have forced change upon society then tell me where Oprah stands. Sho nuff. Make it funky now.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T14:28:01-06:00
ID
73055
Comment

I don't know that she's read it Ray :) I work in television, so I sho nuff understand THAT game. Give her time to come around. Do the right thing and wait. Like Todd says and stuff ;) I don't think that Oprah is reading my emails today though. And I don't like all her shows. But I life her essence and spirit. Finding th best...overcoming obstacles...lifelong learning...etc.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T14:29:55-06:00
ID
73056
Comment

AND HA! I have the most favorite scandalous quote ever made by a woman ready. Or that's my opinion today, and it's just too un-family-friendly for here :) Just got four books of quotes by Wild and Loose Women. I'll keep you updated I'm sure. I can say for me PERSONALLY that Oprah has taught me to take charge of myself (when she took her own talents and made herself the boss/producer), she's taught me that I have CHOICES and to live by those, she's taught me Maya Angelou really rocks and that we all shoud take personal responsibility in educating ourselves.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T14:38:37-06:00
ID
73057
Comment

Maya is a prophet in my view. I view her as goo-goo-eyed as any woman does. Her voice mesmerizes and competes with those of Heston, Jones or any of the rest of them in my view. It appears I've won again. So, Im out. Class, school is out for the week. Have a great weekend.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T14:51:01-06:00
ID
73058
Comment

Ray, Oprah ain't running. That's your characterization, not mine. I think she's right on the money. She probably is alot about the money, but I don't think she's all about the money. And, from the very little bit I know about her, I'm pretty sure she gives a fair amount of it away. And, as emily points out, she's personally a pretty inspirational figure. I mean, when she was in The Color Purple, she was basically unknown. And now she's one of the most powerful women in entertainment. And if you think being a black woman entertainment mogul isn't 'forcing change on society', then I don't know what is.

Author
kate
Date
2006-07-14T14:53:58-06:00
ID
73059
Comment

Ray, I must insist that before you dismiss the class, you must comment on how crunk I am. My students did, and I MISS it. And are we still crunk? Or is there a newer word for that?

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-14T14:56:43-06:00
ID
73060
Comment

Kate, Oprah has done us all well. No one can say a black woman or person can't appeal world-wide to people of all races, because she does. She has been vey generous with her money. I don't have any valid complaints about her or y'all except y'all continue to "shoot out the wrong door." Sho Nuff. Emily, I don't know what crunk really means, but if it means good, talented, intelligent and poised, you're that. I don't know why Ali, Donna, and other women kept sending me personal emails saying be light and easy with Kate and Emily as they ain't quite ready for this game. Y'all did fine anyway.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T15:26:21-06:00
ID
73061
Comment

Alright, stop your lyin', Ray. I haven't sent you a single e-mail about this, and I bet no one else has, either. Personally, I've tried to ignore it. I don't like being baited, even by people I love.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-14T15:29:06-06:00
ID
73062
Comment

Alright. I'm lying. I'm acting like Frank. That's not good.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-14T16:17:04-06:00
ID
73063
Comment

Ray, you ain't just lying. You are talking a lot without doing much listening. Not only that but you are flip flopping all over the place. It's getting kind of annoying, actually and makes me wonder if you think this whole topic is a game. Just a "game" for a "playa" or a "pimp" to have some fun with. I take the issue of hurtful shit towards women a bit more seriously than you do, apparently. Please make your point if you have one and stop stringing this along. Sincerely, Laurel

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-16T10:16:15-06:00
ID
73064
Comment

Usually I love Ray's efforts to make a conversation lighthearted, but I gotta say I agree. Stuff like the Ludacris lyrics really bothers me, because obviously it resonates with a lot of young men, and we have a very, very high incidence of sexual assault and domestic violence in this country, perpetrated by young men who are supposed to be of the "post-feminist" generation. I don't blame Oprah for landing on him about it. I would have done exactly the same thing. Cheers, TH

Author
Tom Head
Date
2006-07-16T14:04:05-06:00
ID
73065
Comment

At the end of all this, Ray still thinks he won. Ha.

Author
Ironghost
Date
2006-07-16T14:23:39-06:00
ID
73066
Comment

Ok everybody. Points are well-taken, Laurel and Tom. I have tried to be honest and objective on this subject matter. I'm not flipflopping as much as it appears. I'm evolving and growing. And trying to make others do the same. There are good and bad characteristics in everyone, including Rappers, Oprah, and me. The reason I take good and bad perspectives is to show that I'm neither all good or all bad. I'm mostly good because I choose that and work to be that way. I have seen some of my heroes do good and bad things. I even saw a lawyer we lawyers revere become angry and curse the opposing lawyer out, and invite him to the parking lot for a fist fight. This was wrong but most of us loved it because he was fighting for a good cause and we sickly enjoyed seeing him become quite normal and lose control. It was funny, too. I have said all along I wanted to see Oprah entertain rap and hip hop on her show. Everything I have said in one way or another is meant to bait and foster that point or desire. I have also said many times there are horrible and good things about rap and hip hop. Indeed I have tried in every way I could think of to cast Oprah's activity with Ludacris as weak, inchoate, and cowardly. All of that was done to entice her and her fans to encourage Oprah to entertain rap and hip-hop in a more complete fashion. And I have always said Oprah should confront not pander or cater to them once invited. Oprah and her supporters have taken, in my opinion, an untoward and utenable position on the matter. Yes, I made some jokes about it. I even tried to show my tail a little because I know some males were reading and enjoying it. I know y'all won't believe it, but I have gotten personal emails from women saying they enjoy my funny way of debating issues although they often disagree with my positions. If I have any conflict or reservation at all about what I have said it's due to also knowing some young people might also be reading what I'm writing. I do not want to be a bad example to them. Pimps are terrible individuals. I have said it numerous times. I wish I could be around tomorrow for any follow up but I'll be out of town. I hope I didn't make too many errors. H.D. Matthias sent me an email about that.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-16T14:39:47-06:00
ID
73067
Comment

I'm just happy we have established the weiner rule. Any time someone throws a stereotypical i-don't-like-what-you-are-saying-woman at me, I get to say he has a small weiner. Let's just get THAT established. I would love to see a small weiner room on the chick blog where we take them and get to mock them all the livelong day ;) I know Ray finds that entertaining.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-16T14:47:50-06:00
ID
73068
Comment

Oprah is now reportedly saying in her magazine, and on MSNBC, and elsewhere, that she and Gayle aren't gay. I never said they were, and don't care- but someone else mentioned or questioned it here. She has been reading our comments? She didn't use drugs either? And she's certainly not afraid of anything or anybody either? I won't talk about the w or p words. I wouldn't be able to handle the newfound rock star or rapper status. Maybe addressing rap/hip-hop is next? Sho Nuff, and Who The Man. And the fellows all answered in unison saying - Ray, You The Man.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T09:01:38-06:00
ID
73069
Comment

my take on rappers is when they learn to play instruments, then I'll take them seriously as music. To me they are just poets with a drum machine going in the background.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-18T09:26:13-06:00
ID
73070
Comment

Oprah and Gayle are very tight friends. And Oprah is not married. And she has no children. And she's a STRONG woman. Ergo, she must be gay. More ASSumptions :) Oh Ray. That gay thing didn't originate here. There had been some frenzy in the media over that one.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T09:50:28-06:00
ID
73071
Comment

You know, like the girls of the jfp. Strong, run their mouths, can disagree on issues but love each other. Anti-man and gay. Every one of us. I'm sure Rush would agree.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T09:52:16-06:00
ID
73072
Comment

If I had a nickle for everytime someone thought I was a lesbian.... Actually, what's funny to me is that I tease all the time that Oprah is gay. But, I actually have a female friendship in my life (and have for over 20 years) that is comparable to her and Gails. I "get" it. My best friend is like my sister. She is my most favorite person in the world and hanging out with her is just like hanging out with myself. We like the same things, we get each other's jokes, we have tons of inside jokes because we've known each other so long. We just love each other. But, there's absolutely nothing sexual about it. There is a definite "sister love" to it. So, after Oprah came out with that statement yesterday...I think I "got" her more. Me and my best friend (EB) ALWAYS tease that we go out together so much and go to the movies together that there are probably TONS of people in town who assume we date. Which is totally fine because she's WAY cute. ;)

Author
Lori G
Date
2006-07-18T09:59:38-06:00
ID
73073
Comment

I don't think it's fair to say rappers aren't musicians, Kingfish. I have studied African-American music at the graduate level and can say a couple of things to this. 1) The rap tradition has a long history in African and AFrican-American culture going back to West African griots. And you are right - they were poets first and foremost, whose job was to give the news and spin of the day. The level of interplay between poetry and music is strong in African-AMerican music, where meter as a concept can be extended and expanded. For example, many pieces move the down beat around, changing the metricity & it's sophisticated when you do an analysis. 2) The interplay of the beat and the poetry is sublime, to me at least, but only when the lyrics are positive. That is , not taking somebody down. 3) It's easy to say something "doesn't sound like music" when it is not your cup of tea. I used to think that about jazz, even about classical cause I had a stuck up relative who told me its the only "real" music. But what I would have missed had I kept that attitude.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-18T10:01:17-06:00
ID
73074
Comment

Oh yeah...it also probably doesn't help that I refer to her as "my wife". ;) Even in front of her boyfriend.

Author
Lori G
Date
2006-07-18T10:01:19-06:00
ID
73075
Comment

Ali, Emily, I hear ya. I think female atheletes probably get it the worst. But it's strange, this idea that women being close means they are lesbians. most likely just more male fantasies, if you ask me.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-18T10:02:42-06:00
ID
73076
Comment

Thank you Laurel on the rap as music thing up there. I've read much of the origin and such and the connection is beautiful to me. And I find a lot of redeeming literary value in lyrics. Can't beat the poetical themes, use of allusion, etc. It's also very SMART! (and i agree on the when positive...)

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T10:10:55-06:00
ID
73077
Comment

I guess questions about the relationship finally got to her. Rap/hip-hop is next! She needs time to come around. Who ever said the girls of JFP were anti-men or gay? If I thought that I'd have stopped posting as much long ago, and have gone into the conversion business (not religious though). We all know race, sex, or sexual preference don't matter to us in blogging or conversation. I believe it was Adam, the first human, who said "Some people do, and some people don't." After Eve finished with him, he reportedly said "Some people do do, and some people don't." I'm finished with this one until Oprah does right by rappers. As soon as the big announcement, I'll resume. Na, na, ne, ni.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T10:15:20-06:00
ID
73078
Comment

Laurel, allow me to clarify for I was not clear. I am putting alot of rappers in with back street boys, N Sync, Brittaney, and a bunch of other people who are in music and have no talent or ability. By that I mean they don't know the first thing about songwriting. They don't know how to play an instrument. They don't know anything about production. They are a face that a promoter picks out with a decent voice and someone else writes the songs, operates the mixer, drum machine, and other stuff etc. Once you could see Led Zeppelin jamming with Muddy Waters. Miles would jam with McLaughlin on guitar and you could see coltrane or marsalis possibly jamming with pink floyd if they were at the same time periods. These "artists" now don't play with other bands or experiement, the main reason why is because, they can't.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-18T10:15:41-06:00
ID
73079
Comment

You're right Ray. The discussion regarding Oprah's announcement about she and her friend's relationship does not have anything to do with this thread ;) We should carry that discussion of strong women, their friendships and how they are misconstrued somewhere else. Because we can't call her strong and human here when we are calling her chicken. :P But the reference to anti-men IS here. And the reasons why people say things like that are the same.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T10:21:14-06:00
ID
73080
Comment

I didn't know men have fantasies about seeing women together?. I thought a man had to be thrown in there too! Anyway, I'm going to Chicago soon to visit. Maybe I'll drop by and talk to homegirl about changing her mind.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T10:35:14-06:00
ID
73081
Comment

Jimmy or Kangfish, rap is music to many folks. Some rappers are very good with music, too. For instance, Flavor Flav of Public Enemy can play many instruments. And you should hear some of the rap my client has done who's waiting on a trial or dismissal for capital murder.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T10:39:24-06:00
ID
73082
Comment

Kingfish, I see what you mean. That is a different argument than just saying rappers don't have talent. Talented people are in every genre, and then of course there is the music industry machine which it seems to me more and more often is picking people based on their looks & not their talent. My husband has about 60 early Rolling Stone mags, like from 1968 ish. And the ads are so different - they have a lot of words, descriptions, etc. not many photos. One thing I hate about this new trend as well is that if you are female and talented, you must also be pretty much willing to pose half-naked. But in thinking on it, let's not leave out the fact that African-American talent and music was the back bone for almost all of American popular music. Songs we think of as being written by rock musicians are, when you look deeper often African-American blues numbers. African-Americans really haven't gotten the credit they deserve on this one. Which is why I tried to follow this thread very carefully. I don't think it's right to diss on black men or on black male musicians, especially when they've been given the shaft so often in American music business history. But, at the same time I think if the lyrics are degrading to women, then I personally need to speak to that. Ray, maybe you could write Oprah a letter on this? Do you think she'd listen?

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-18T10:41:21-06:00
ID
73083
Comment

or go visit her. Tell us what she's said! :-)

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-18T10:43:39-06:00
ID
73084
Comment

Ray, if you do, talk with Kamikaze about some of our ideas first ;) We're trying to manage the time for it. As I'm sure are things Oprah must think of as well. Which is why I'm glad God gave me patience.

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T10:47:25-06:00
ID
73085
Comment

Laurel, I mentioned Muddy, Miles Davis, and John Coltrane for a reason. ;-) I just refuse to classify rappers as musicians (I know there are exceptions, there always are). A listen to Bitches Brew will give one a pretty good idea where a lot of rock was influenced and some listens to Muddy Waters will as well (Led Zeppelin BBC Sessions is great for blues from a rock perspective by the way). I'll call them artists, but not consider them musicians and I use the term artist loosely as too many of them don't have any talent besides reciting poetry into a microphone as I said earlier. I also didn't diss on black men as I included the diva from Kentwood and the Back Street Boys in that post as well. However, if I think their music sux, I'll say so. ;-). I have 25 Miles Davis cds and 10 COltrane ones sitting right next to my Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Led Zeppelin, NIN, STP, ELP, King Crimson, U2, Dishwallah and others.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-18T10:54:05-06:00
ID
73086
Comment

well, I brought up the dissing of black men more as general context for this thread. kind of something I felt needed to be said, not so much an accusation of you. I do think, though, that if you say "there are exceptions" but then diss on a group anyway you aren't being too fair. That's just my take.

Author
Izzy
Date
2006-07-18T11:01:36-06:00
ID
73087
Comment

Bitches Brew is a wasted recording effort. You would need to be stoned (which Miles probably was) and like Rock, which I hardly do, in order to evenly mildly appreciate that album. I threw mines away. And the voice or mouth is not an instrument I bet.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T11:08:51-06:00
ID
73088
Comment

I'm glad you said it Laurel. And music does not even need an instrument beyond a voice to be music. Acapella anyone? Gregorian chants? Are we defining music or ripping a style?

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T11:11:00-06:00
ID
73089
Comment

Girls, I like how y'all are tearing into Kingfish. If I didn't know better, I'd assume there is a point to what y'all have been saying all along. I'm almost starting to like y'all. Laurel, do you remember me from class? Did you ever imagine I was this crazy?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T11:22:17-06:00
ID
73090
Comment

I still like the album Ray. And listening to alot of other rock albums I can see how heavily it influence alot of bands. Emily, I'm aware of accapella. I listen to Sinatra quite a bit as well. He and Nat King Cole exercised quite a bit of creative control over what music they did. I was slamming more a part of the music industry, not a genre. Like I said, I included N Sync and Ashley Simpson, Brittany Spears etc for a reason. I mean, can you imagine Sinatra or Nat King Cole running off a stage because their tape machine went out? Hell no, they'd just sing away (of course, they wouldn't have lip synced in the first place). call me a snob but its also hard for me to respect musicians who lip sync in concerts. You're not much of an artist if you can't do it live. Its merely what the music industry has become, too much flash and not enough good craftsmanship.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-18T11:26:09-06:00
ID
73091
Comment

and Ray, I've been agreeing with about 75% of what Laurel and Emilyb have been saying. as for Miles, it was probably his longtime heroin addiction.

Author
Kingfish
Date
2006-07-18T11:29:02-06:00
ID
73092
Comment

Why have you been agreeing with them? They don't know nothing. I thought I was whupping them good.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T11:32:38-06:00
ID
73093
Comment

Its threads like this that make me wish the CL let you comment under their Letters to the Editor. ;)

Author
Lori G
Date
2006-07-18T11:41:29-06:00
ID
73094
Comment

If I were still talking to Ali, I'd say I can't believe you stayed out of this debate or argument so long. I guess I have more juice than I realized. And if I could, I'd further say thanks for the compliment. But since we're no longer taliking, I'll just be silent and read.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T11:47:36-06:00
ID
73095
Comment

Ray-if you were still talking to me I'd tell you that I stayed out of this argument because I "went there" already once in a Kamikaze thread and I happen to KNOW the definition of "insanity". (Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results) ;)

Author
Lori G
Date
2006-07-18T11:49:43-06:00
ID
73096
Comment

Yeah. Like saying I win. We do that at my house when my son is arguing just for the sake of arguing. We say "you win." Like, "I thought of the saying 'Shut your pie hole' myself." We just let him think he did. Because I know his brain may not be developed enough yet to know that there are people who speak (and say shut your pie hole) outside of the realm of his little world. But yes, he was the first in the house to say "Shut your pie hole."

Author
emilyb
Date
2006-07-18T12:05:27-06:00
ID
73097
Comment

Alright, girls, I'm tired. I quit. I give up. Y'all go on and on like the Energizer bunny. Y'all win. Ali, until you do right by me....

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T12:37:58-06:00
ID
73098
Comment

That would be the Energizer Rabbit, Ray. Don't insult us chicks by calling us bunnies. We're onto to your pig-game.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-18T12:38:52-06:00
ID
73099
Comment

There you go again with the Color Purple references, Ray.

Author
Lori G
Date
2006-07-18T12:40:20-06:00
ID
73100
Comment

I got to get back to work. Bye for now, ladies. I sho nuff hope this doesn't offend anyone accidentally, too. I only said girls because Emily has used it many times to refer to the women here. Any offense taken by that rabbit or bunny was certainly unintended and unanticipated. The jokes and lovingly name-calling don't bother me at all. Feel free to do it when emailing me if you want to. Surely, it would cause me to smile. I was only joking Ali and all. I'm not hurt, offended, or perturbed in the least.

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T12:57:02-06:00
ID
73101
Comment

The man is bruised, ladies. Good work. ;-D Big hug, Ray.

Author
DonnaLadd
Date
2006-07-18T13:02:58-06:00
ID
73102
Comment

"And the lone soldier fought valiantly and bravely on although he was outnumbered a 1000 to 1. He marched and traversed speedily and meticously through the dangerous and trapped terrain as if the minefields weren't present. His opponents were shooting from every position and direction but it was of no consequence to the impetuous soldier. The soldier fought courageously on although he knew the opponent's general could drop the hydrogen bomb on him at any moment she pleased. The soldier was driven on despite inordinate odds by remembering another great soldier words proclaiming there is nothing to fear but fear itself. The lone soldier is now in semi-retirement. He spends his days teaching young soldiers how to fight the good fight against overwhelming odds. The soldier's story is not just a mere story of courage and greatness in war. It is also a story and lesson of love, as the soldier did not hate his opponents. The soldier didn't needlessly or aimlessly shoot at his opponents. Nor did he shoot to kill any of them. He shot only when he had to, and only to injure. Because of how the soldier fought and lived, the soldier lives forever." Thanks for the hug. Sho Nuff. I don't care what y'all say in response, I'm not commenting on this one again. Who the man?

Author
Ray Carter
Date
2006-07-18T14:13:34-06:00

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