Ellington

Okay, I have to admit it: I watch some of the movies on Lifetime. One recently got my attention and caused me to think about my feelings about the power and consequences of deception. The movie, based on a true story, was "A GIRL LIKE ME: The Gwen Araujo story."

For those that are not familiar with it, it is the story of a guy who feels as though he is a female in a male body who begins to live his life as a female. The movie talks about his challenges with his family as well as in relationships that he was forming.

The movie ends, however, with "Gwen's" death at the hands of a few men that discovered her true identity.

Read the comprehensive bio on Gwen Araujo here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Araujo

There are some issues with this story that have bothered me since I saw it and read about it. Of course, we all feel for those who are the victims of violent crimes. I think what concerns me about stories like this is that the death seems to be avoidable.

As an artist, I feel that freedom is something we should be able to explore openly, but I am more conservative when it comes to my views on morality and a basic element: TRUTH.

We are all faced with the truth about ourselves and others. Alot of times, we find it easier to create our own truth. When we do that, however, we have to wrap our minds around the fact that there can---and IMO will--- be consequences.

Am I judging Gwen Araujo? That is not my place. But I do feel as though this tragic case highlights the dangers of sexual deception.

Previous Comments

ID

106680

Comment

For those who saw the movie---and even for those who didn't--- the movie begins with the trials of the deceased accusers. The situation was this: Edward "Gwen" Araujo had engaged in oral sex with several guys, telling them "she" couldn't go all the way because she was a virgin. One guy who really loved her dated Araujo for 9 months, and according to his testimony he had no idea that it was a male. According to the movie--- which was produced under the direction of Araujo's family--- "Gwen" said that "she" believed he knew but didn't want to admit it to himself. It was "Gwen's" mom who told him the truth and he broke off the relationship. Again, I am not saying that any murder is justified, but I am saying that such deception can have an effect on people with dangerous consequences.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T01:45:39-06:00

ID

106681

Comment

This subject IMO needs to be given a forum because it is not only complex but life-threatening as well. The fact that "Gwen" saw himself as a woman, to me, does not make him a woman. What you feel is what you feel, but it all goes back to truth. I am trying to be delicate about this due to the sensitivity of the subject, but I feel as though lack of truth was as much a cause of death in this case as hate.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T01:49:56-06:00

ID

106682

Comment

I'm not quite sure I get it c a. So a bunch of guys let some strange woman go down on them and then they're upset that she was a he? It's hardly like they had committed relationships with this transgendered individual. But for vanity's sake they killed him, to protect their masculinity. Pathetic. If you put your male organ in some stranger's mouth, all is fair game, is it not? And I really cannot accept any equivocation over such a horrible crime. If such a thing happens to you, you laugh it off and go on with your life, secure with a story you can tell at bachelor parties. I mean, isn't that sufficiently crass? Instead, these men murdered someone to prove that they hate fags. Pathetic. The "truth" was only a proximate cause. The real cause was that these men were so immoral that they thought sexual deception gave them the right to take a life. I honestly don't get it.

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2006-07-04T18:06:11-06:00

ID

106683

Comment

Hey Brian, thanks for the post. Actually, according to the information that is provided on lifetimetv.com and even in published reports, the guys had known "Gwen" for a while, so it wasn't a one-time thing. To kinda sum up what I read: * the ex-girlfriend of the 9-month boyfriend was also friends of the guys who eventually killed "Gwen". * she knew that "Gwen" had been with the other guys, and because of something she reportedly saw in the girl's bathroom made her suspicious of "Gwen"; * her jealousy about losing her boyfriend to Gwen, coupled with her anger over how other guys were messing with Gwen and not suspicious, caused her to share what she suspected. Again, I approached this whole subject not wanting anyone to feel as though I was trying to say that murder is ever justified. But I did find all the information, including what Gwen's mother had to say about "her", led me to question if the truth in the very beginning would have made a difference.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T18:47:35-06:00

ID

106684

Comment

These guys were brutal sadists -- plain and simple. There is no excuse and no way of defending their actions. You have random sex and you'll get random surprises (some of which include STDs and HIV and occassionaly a hidden penis or vagina or both). Also, c.a., I'd like to point out that calling a person an "it" is dehumanizing in every way possible. You could easily use Edward and "he" or Gwen and "she" but the prounoun "it" strips the humanity from the topic if you ask me. The fact that "Gwen" saw himself as a woman, to me, does not make him a woman. What you feel is what you feel, but it all goes back to truth. - c.a. I felt the same way until I had an in-depth discussion with a trans person or two. I'm still a little intrigued and full of questions but there is no doubt in my mind that there is a very different sense of being in these individuals. Have a discussion with a trans person and you'll know what I mean. Unfortunately, many trans people disappear into their new lives and do not identify as "trans" once they've become the sex they feel they have always been... This makes it very difficult to have such discussions in general. What you feel is what you feel, but it all goes back to truth. - c.a. Gender is not defined by one's genitals though gentials can influence gender. Gender and sex are different and both can be modified. Regardless, the ultimate moral of the story: don't have random sex and not expect surprises. This could be true for the muderers and Gwen... Still, machismo is no excuse for murder. Personally, I think these guys should have been given the death sentence for the brutal manner in which they murdered her.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-07-04T19:02:29-06:00

ID

106685

Comment

Knol, thanks for joining the discussion. You write: "don't have random sex and not expect surprises." I agree with you, and I apologize for the "it" reference. It was not used wit malice, but I see your point. Again, I am not saying that the crime was not a horrible one, but I do feel as though the case brings up some questions that we all need to look at. I am trying to be cautious in my approach to this, because I don't want to come across as judgmental or insensitive, but here are the underlying questions to me: Would any of this ever happened if the Araujo child had been truthful to everyone around him that he was a male who enjoyed dressing up as a female? If they had known that the Araujo child was a gay male who liked to have sex with males, would they have been involved in any kind of sexual relationship with him? I did an opinion piece for the SF View last week about the movie, which brought all of this to mind for me. In doing the research, I avoided reading the information on the same-gender sites at first just to get the "news reports" of the story and murder. My heart goes out to the family for what happened, but I feel as though the hard questions have to be asked in order to get the knowledge to those who might find themselves in similar situations.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T19:15:42-06:00

ID

106686

Comment

Would any of this ever happened if the Araujo child had been truthful to everyone around him that he was a male who enjoyed dressing up as a female? That's not what Gwen was. Gwen perceived herself as a girl trapped in the body of a boy. Big huge ginormous difference from just liking to dress in women's clothes. Transvestite does not equal transsexual. If they had known that the Araujo child was a gay male who liked to have sex with males, would they have been involved in any kind of sexual relationship with him? I don't want to be judgmental of you, but I think you should be aware that you are grossly oversimplifying Gwen's perception of herself. She did not identify as a gay man; she identified as a woman. That may be hard for people who conform to society's norms for their gender to understand, but it is the way it is. Best, Tim

Author

Tim Kynerd

Date

2006-07-04T19:41:30-06:00

ID

106687

Comment

Would any of this ever happened if the Araujo child had been truthful to everyone around him that he was a male who enjoyed dressing up as a female? - c.a. "Enjoyed" is not the proper word in most circumstances. A person that enjoys wearing women's clothes is a transvestite, drag queen/king, or cross-dresser but NOT a transgender/sexual. Based on what I know, Gwen was not a transvestite but was more than likely gender dysphoric. So, your question is flawed from the beginning. In many ways, being trans doesn't involve clothing but full-on appearance and acceptance as the sex one feels. In other words, Gwen could have been Gwen in men's clothes but would have never felt like herself without being physically being perceived and accepted as a female (and most likely physically a female). But, to answer your question, no. Obviously, it would not have happened. Your scenario would automatically negate the actual outcome. Still, by being out in the manner you're suggesting in many ways defeats the point of the transition/transformation. These people want and desire and need to live as they feel emotionally and spiritually. They will never be accepted or embraced if they flaunt their transition to everyone. Furthermore, being "out" could have led to another brutal attack because she was out. If they had known that the Araujo child was a gay male who liked to have sex with males, would they have been involved in any kind of sexual relationship with him? -c.a. You're way off with that statement. Trans people are unique like every other human. But, their sexuality has nothing to do with their sex/gender and nothing to do with gender dysphoria. They are not related in any manner. Araujo, based on what I've read (and also know from other individuals), is not a gay man. Araujo truly feels she is a woman living in a man's body and more than likely felt tortured being perceived as a male. So, in context, Araujo was a straight female trapped in a man's body. I know... It's alot to digest. Seriously, I understand and do not claim to have all the answers but I can tell you this: people do not have irreverseable surgery of this caliber and large doses of hormones just to wear women's or men's clothes. It's far deeper, complex and interesting.

Author

kaust

Date

2006-07-04T19:55:21-06:00

ID

106688

Comment

The problem is not Araujo. The problem is a society that quietly applauds and embraces (or sits without opinion or repulsion) brutal machismo and attacks perceived threats to the macho element that surrounds our culture. Did Araujo mislead? I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I, for one, think the men were misled by society and their peers into thinking casual sex does not have major drawbacks and consequences. Unfortunately, it took a human life to teach these sadistic boys that lesson. Face it, you never know what you're getting yourself into when having or exploring sexual relationships with a new person...

Author

kaust

Date

2006-07-04T19:55:59-06:00

ID

106689

Comment

Knol, thank you for your comments. You wrote: "people do not have irreverseable surgery of this caliber and large doses of hormones just to wear women's or men's clothes." As far as the published reports show, though, Gwen did not have surgery of any kind so was biologically male in every physical way. I know this is not an easy discussion to have, but I have to wonder why you say I am "way off" by asking the question about whether sexual contact would have occurred if Gwen had just presented himself as a gay male. It is a question worth asking if you look at all angles of this case. None of us want to be closed-minded to this incident, regardless of how we personally feel about the people involved. I just want the discussion to be there. Again, I am not saying that Gwen (and I know from an email I got off this site that her family had her name changed after her death, so I will call her Gwen from this point onward) got what she deserved. I'm just saying we should know all the details and try to keep such senseless crimes from occurring again.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T21:42:28-06:00

ID

106690

Comment

C.A.-Well, I think Knol is saying that you are way off about the "gay male" thing because Gwen would not have considered herself a gay male. She would have considered herself a straight woman trapped in a male body. So, therefore, she would never have presented herself as a gay male. It wouldn't have made sense to her. There is a definite distinction.

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-07-04T22:10:36-06:00

ID

106691

Comment

Ali, gotcha. Point taken.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T22:18:41-06:00

ID

106692

Comment

C.A., I always had an instinctive grasp of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues, but transgender issues are something I've only recently become aware of. This is partly because I have never known a transgender person--as far as I know. So I share your confusion, and appreciate the fact that you have a significant history of open-mindedness on issues like these. One of the things I had to get used to was the idea that "the operation" is not necessarily central to the transgender experience, and that a man can legitimately become a woman, or a woman a man, without "the operation." We tend to think of gender in biological terms, but let's get real about what we're asking a MTF transgender person to do: Give up the possibility of ever having a normal orgasm. Give up the possibillity of ever having a biological child. To be literally castrated. To have a serious, complex, life-threatening surgery. If a transgender person has not had "the operation," we tend to think of these folks as pre-male or pre-female. But hormonal supplements have far more significant effects on overall body chemistry than doing cosmetic work on genitalia. That's really not the central part of the transgender experience. It's something you might or might not decide to do along the way, but people don't go off to Sweden, have a six-hour surgery, and become a woman. They become women and then they go off to Sweden to have the six-hour surgery. After all, why would a man have the surgery? That doesn't make any sense. Yes, if people think they're getting sexual favors from a woman and that woman later turns out to have a penis, or herpes, or membership in the Republican Party, a murderer might get enraged and take a life. But I don't think it makes any sense at all to organize our lives around what potential murderers--or rapists, or abusers--might do. We should have the courage to be ourselves. That's what Gwen Araujo did, and that's the lesson that I, personally, am inclined to take away from her story. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2006-07-04T22:33:14-06:00

ID

106693

Comment

Tom, I knew that you all would understand what I was trying to do with this--- and your comment proves it. Like I have said before in this and other posts, I am not judging her. There alot of things around this that I don't understand--- just as I'm sure there are alot of things others might do (myself included) that are not easily understood. I have tried my best to be diplomatic in the way I have discussed this, realizing that I can write my thoughts better than have a conversation about it--- especially without being offensive.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-04T22:48:52-06:00

ID

106694

Comment

CA, I definitely see where you're coming from about confusion. Allow me to pitch this ball out to see how and where you and others will hit it. To me, the key is to separate two components of a person: (a) which gender they are attrarcted to and (b)gender self-identification. The numerically predominate pattern for those with XY (Male) chromosone configuration is to (a)be attracted to females and (b) to have a gender self-identification as a male. Likewise, those with XX chromosone configuration will self-identify as females and be attracted to males. Taking this into the realm of "brain scanning", we are already well on our way to learning how to use MRIs to detect brain behavior patterns consistent with psychopathy (i.e., "lacking capacity for empathy"). Certain neurochemical, neuroelectric, and blood flow patterns are consistent with certain emotions and thought processes that occur in our brains. I think it's possible to use this same principle to identify parts of the brain to identify as one gender or another. For the numerical majority of people, the following three aspects of their person follow this pattern: chromosonal gender (XY if male, XX if female) is in line with gender self-identification (those with XY chromosone self-identify as male, those with XX self-identify as female). Furthermore, the numerical majority are attracted with those of the opposite pattern. For gay males, they are XY and self-identify as male, but their brains are such they are attracted to those of the same gender. Take this one step further. Gwen probably had an XY chromosone configuration, yet "his" brain was such that "he" self-identified as a female. "He"(apparently) was also sexually attracted to men in a "feminine" way. With further technological advances, I'm sure we could detect this in the brain. In other words, you have to look at each step in the gender and gender self-identification process. Gwen certainly was aware that "she" was built as a male", but the emotional, "brain architecture" or whatever it is that causes on to identify as one gender or another caused Gwen to identify as female. If I only made you more confused, my apologies. But this is an honest attempt to help clarify the matter. Whatever this posts faults, I hope it brings at least some clarity to the matter.

Author

Philip

Date

2006-07-05T00:21:11-06:00

ID

106695

Comment

Philip, that is an awesome post. I just did a google search of Gwen using medical in the search and according to what was said in court---and what was shown in the movie--- the doctor said that Gwen was (for lack of a better word) "wired" as a female though physically male. Now, this is an area that I'm not going to get into because I believe it will only stir up more feelings---and personal beliefs--- but I bring it up now because your post relates to it. Again, I don't want to seem callus about this, so I will just say that it is indeed complicated. For someone so young, she had dealt with a great deal. Let's just hope that we learn something from her ultimate sacrifice.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-05T00:33:21-06:00

ID

106696

Comment

C.A.-I guess the easiest way to think about it would be this... How confusing would it be to you to wake up tomorrow in a female's body? Everything in your head would tell you that you were C.A. Webb, a male. But, your external appearance would be female...and men would be attracted to you. In fact, the male attention might even frighten you, confuse you. Mainly because you were a male and were not a homosexual. You would be very unhappy because you could not enjoy sex as a male. And, the idea of sex with a male (technically "straight sex") would not be what you wanted. You would want sex with a female. But, you wouldn't consider yourself "gay", would you? Nope. You'd just be like "Damn. I'm a GUY...and I WANT A WOMAN (and a male organ)" ;)

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-07-05T00:53:51-06:00

ID

106697

Comment

Ali, what can I say---Leave it to you to make me smile about this. I feel you on that one. Now I owe you a drink... and a song at Hal and Mals. :-)

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-05T00:58:19-06:00

ID

106698

Comment

CA and Ali, why in the hell are y'all still awake at the time you wrote your last posts? Thank God for the simple life. If I were the prosecutors I would tear the killers a new tail. If I were the judge I'd do all I can to foster convictions. "It's not a good idea to stick your Dick Johnson into places or holes you're unfamiliar with." A Dick Johnson Amputee. "It's similarly a good idea to look or feel what the other person is packing or carrying before engaging in sex." A Simple Man Trying to Avoid Surprises.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-07-05T09:15:25-06:00

ID

106699

Comment

Ray, I think Ali and you are taking turns helping me lighten this thing up. Too bad I'm not that hands-on (lol).

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-05T09:23:39-06:00

ID

106700

Comment

Good C.A.-I love it when a man owes me a drink and a song. Ray-I don't know if you heard, but I am currently unemployed. This means I no longer have a "bedtime". Because, technically...its NEVER a school night for me. :) I do enjoy this topic mainly because sexually is SO layered. And, when people identify as straight and live somewhat "normal" sexual roles...its hard at times to really understand the many different forms sexuality can take. I think that most people are too rigid in their definition of sexuality and sexual roles. I mean, I identify as straight...but you would be AMAZED by the amount of people who think I am a lesbian simply because I'm not afraid to acknowledge the fact that a woman is "hot".

Author

Lori G

Date

2006-07-05T10:10:08-06:00

ID

106701

Comment

I understand Ali. I happen to think all men ar quite ugly and awful, and simultaneously thinking most women are vey hot. Hopefully, that doesn't make people think I'm a lesbian too. I have nothing against lesbians, and I like most of the ones I know; I'm just simply not lesbian. I have some neices who are very talented basketball players. They are fine too, so the young fellows tell me. However, they act far too much like boys for my taste, and I worry about gay coaches or players trying to sway them in that direction. I would love them the same, however; but I'm not crazy about seeing that happen.

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-07-05T10:44:39-06:00

ID

106702

Comment

Ali, you brought up a point in your last post that I want to follow up on. I went into this topic with the admission that I am typically "conservative" when it comes to moral views, hoping the reader would read into that what they may about my personal feelings. However, I work as the Communications Director for Building Bridges Inc., which aids those infected and affected by HIV/AIDS and one of the speakers make a comment last week during National HIV testing day that ties into what you are saying. Valencia Robinson said that we need to take the sexuality out of the disease. She made the point that HIV is not a gay virus or straight virus by a sexually transmitted disease, meaning that anyone who is sexually active is at risk. Though I may know that discrimination is wrong in all forms, it is difficult sometime to put that in practice when it is something that you might not personally agree with or understand. You have done a great job on this discussion showing that in the end, it is not about the feelings of the majority, but the respect that is due to all, even those in the minority.

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-05T11:11:02-06:00

ID

106703

Comment

Some money is in the mail Ali! What are you doing to fill idle time my grandmother says "an idle mind is the devil's workshop?"

Author

Ray Carter

Date

2006-07-05T11:37:00-06:00

ID

106704

Comment

ray, what about if you keep yourself with busy with devilment? you're darned if you do; darned if you don't. (smile)

Author

c a webb

Date

2006-07-05T12:14:28-06:00