Ellington

The New York Times is reporting that conservatives in Washington are reacting in a very cynical way to the poverty exposed to the world by Hurricane Katrina:

As Hurricane Katrina put the issue of poverty onto the national agenda, many liberal advocates wondered whether the floods offered a glimmer of opportunity. The issues they most cared about - health care, housing, jobs, race - were suddenly staples of the news, with President Bush pledged to "bold action." Conservatives have already used the storm for causes of their own, like suspending requirements that federal contractors have affirmative action plans and pay locally prevailing wages. And with federal costs for rebuilding the Gulf Coast estimated at up to $200 billion, Congressional Republican leaders are pushing for spending cuts, with programs like Medicaid and food stamps especially vulnerable.

"We've had a stunning reversal in just a few weeks," said Robert Greenstein, director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a liberal advocacy group in Washington. "We've gone from a situation in which we might have a long-overdue debate on deep poverty to the possibility, perhaps even the likelihood, that low-income people will be asked to bear the costs. I would find it unimaginable if it wasn't actually happening."

Mr. Greenstein's comments were echoed by Representative Rosa DeLauro, Democrat of Connecticut: "Poor people are going to get the short end of the stick, despite all the public sympathy. That's a great irony."

But many conservatives see logic, not irony, at work. If the storm exposed great poverty, they say, it also exposed the problems of the very policies that liberals have supported.

"This is not the time to expand the programs that were failing anyway," said Stuart M. Butler, a vice president of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative research and advocacy group influential on Capitol Hill.

Wow. Money-changers, indeed.

Previous Comments

ID

134656

Comment

"This is not the time to expand the programs that were failing anyway," said Stuart M. Butler I, literally, can't believe he just said that. I CANNOT BELIEVE HE SAID THAT. I'm going to step away from the computer for ten minutes. I'll be back. There will probably be something broken.

Author

Lori G

Date

2005-10-11T13:12:27-06:00

ID

134657

Comment

"I would find it unimaginable if it wasn't actually happening." Sums up the past five years for me.

Author

Count No Account

Date

2005-10-11T14:54:20-06:00

ID

134658

Comment

I hear you, Count. For the record, I've got a great document somewhere around here about the Heritage Foundation's strategies for the conservative future of this country. I'll have to dig around for it. The greed and the idiocy are breathtaking. Try this logic: No need to feed a hungry man because it'll just make him want more food, the greedy bastard. There is a special place in hell for people like this. Cigars allowed, I hear. Just saw this quote in someone's signature line: "Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible, and they are stupid." - Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower, November 8, 1954

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2005-10-11T14:57:57-06:00

ID

134659

Comment

Donna, I believe that I read some of that plan. It had something to do with the richest five percent in America continuing to grow richer and richer off the sweat and blood of the middle and lower classes. By keeping wages in check and slashing funding for social services, the ruling elite will fold the middle class into a growing lower class. Interest income will drive the whole model as interest income grows through artificially stimulated inflation, further tightening the noose on the lower class and driving dividends higher and higher for the wealthy ruling class. Were those the future plans you were talking about? Sounds like a rosy future, no? (I'm surprised we haven't seen some kind of capital-gains reduction as a part of the effort to "assist" Katrina victims. I can see it now, "Lost your rental shanty in the 9th Ward? NO PROBLEM! Liquidate your Standard Oil holdings at a lower penalty NOW!")

Author

Count No Account

Date

2005-10-11T15:30:12-06:00

ID

134660

Comment

What a bunch of losers! What is it that makes you think that you're better than those of us that have gotten an education, made responsible decisions in life, not become pharmaceutically dependent, gotten and kept a decent job, raised kids, and don't cry about how poorly done by we all are. Are there those well-healed types that abuse the system? You bet there are - but don't lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of ungrateful and shiftless societal misfits are among those in the very class that you are so loudly portraying as being screwed by "the man"! Does that mean that I should give my money to such individuals? I don't think so. By the way, I don't remember seeing any of you in Iraq last time I was there. If you want to see people that are poorly done by, get off your ass, join the service of your choice, and volunteer for a short tour to the choosen land of the religion of peace! There, you will find people that truly have something to complain about. In fact, try living there for a week (or maybe a year like some of the rest of us) - then, objectively if you can, think about how bad you have it here!! Until then, don't bother those of us trying to do what's right with what we have available to us - life ain't fair and none of you spoiled whiners are better than any of the rest of us.

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-11T17:29:54-06:00

ID

134661

Comment

Um, TOL, actually you should be worried...the growing lower class (or rather disappearing middle class) and the inflation that Count speaks of means YOU. You aren't so high and mighty as to not be taken out two paychecks down the road. Until you realize that at that point you will depend on SOMEONE, that someone being family or government assistance, you will see that we ALL need to be worried about the economics and the future of the "losers". Essentially, unless you are in the top five percent of the population...and I doubt you are...you are one of us. Welcome to the club, my man. Try not to trip over the discontent on the way out.

Author

Lori G

Date

2005-10-11T17:54:30-06:00

ID

134662

Comment

I would also like to add, thanks for going to Iraq. I can't imagine how bad it sucks over there. I, myself, know that I could never do that.

Author

Lori G

Date

2005-10-11T17:57:40-06:00

ID

134663

Comment

Yes, Tired, thank you for going to Iraq. I haven't gone myself, but I have lost a family member there, and it is painful. I can understand if being there has caused you a lot of stress and is making you be a jerk in your postings. But, respectfully, do not ever come on this site again and talk to other people like you're doing. You're making yourself look plain stupid and rude, regardless of your military service. Due to the extent of your nastiness, you only get one warning, so figure out how to have an adult conversation, or ship on out of my Web site. That is, apply a bit of personal responsibility to your own behavior. In addition, your accusations aren't making a smidgeon of sense; there happen to be people here, and a good number of them from what I know, who have (1) gotten an education (2) made repsonsible decisions in life, (3) not become pharmaceutically dependent, (4) gotten and kept a decent job, and (5) raised kids. As for your No. 6, it doesn't make any sense at all so I won't bother to try to respond to it. As for your attitude about "such individuals," I feel rather sorry for you if you such stereotypes about people with less than you. America, the America you're fighting for, includes the poor even if you despise "such individuals" so much. And I assume you do not follow the teachings of any major religious leaders with your attitude about the poor.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2005-10-11T18:51:06-06:00

ID

134664

Comment

ToL, you could just as easily claim to have fought in the Mexican-American War; we'd have no way of verifying that claim because, unlike us, you're posting anonymously. So pardon me if I don't give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you've seen one macho anonymous right-winger disparaging the poor, you've seen 'em all. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-12T02:06:07-06:00

ID

134665

Comment

Ain't it the truth, Tom. Of course, here you've usually seen only one ó remember the guy who has tried some 13 screen names to troll here. He is also the one who complains the loudest around town about JFP "censorship." Amusingly, he has never once tried to register here under his own name. Just fake ones to try out different personas to use to bash other people. Sometimes I humor him and let him stay a few rounds so that y'all can skewer his butt in public, because the guy can't argue his way out of a paper bag. He's too blinded by ideology to make a basic logical argument. But it is funny to see the personas he tries to pull off. The guy really needs a life.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2005-10-12T08:54:31-06:00

ID

134666

Comment

Ali/ladd/Tom My post was not designed to offend but rather to stimulate/engage the cranial coprocessor. I read the posts on this subject (GOP Using Katrina Aftermath to Gut Anti-Poverty Efforts) and it seemed as though the common theme was the typical GOP bash that those with more despise those without and the poor are getting the shaft again ñ why is that? Thereís an old saying out there that the definition of a conservative is: a liberal thatís been mugged! Think about it. Iíve watched for years as a long line of social programs, handouts, and self-proclaimed do-gooders throw tax dollars at problems with little real thought process short of the resulting ìfeel-goodî buzz that accompanies the ìeffortî. Of course, the first set of names that jump to the front of the line are Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, etc. I used to be one of those ìenlightenedî minds that tried to do what was right ñ volunteer my time, work at the county health clinic, etc., and then I started assessing the reality of the responses/situations I was personally encountering. It took a number of years, but finally, I became more objective ñ the naivety of it all became apparent. Now, as a member of the armed forces, it is truly depressing to watch the political opportunists wax eloquent about how pitiful the poor are, how they can not help themselves, are completely dependent on the rest of us (something that they personally use to pander for votes), and the related moral/financial obligation that the rest of the citizenry has to them as a class of people, and know that I can not speak publicly/openly against those statements. The more infuriating aspect of it is that this is all coming from those that unilaterally pass tax increases ñ all the while explaining how it is the ìwill of the peopleî. Several responses were made that I despised/disparaged the poor ñ au contraire, Monsieur. I do neither for those that are truly poor! Understand that for the most part, the military teaches individuals to be pro-active, self-sufficient, and motivated. (For purposes of the following comments, letís agree that those that are truly incapable of providing for themselves are outside of the ìsubjectî class.) During the hurricane coverage, I found that the vast majority of Katrina evacuees the media wrote about/interviewed/ gave on-air face time to, were not individuals that fit into the pro-active, self-sufficient, and motivated group. I read and watched on TV the tirade of seemingly able-bodied people lamenting that the government wasnít taking care of them. They said ñ along with a number of other political opportunists - that because they were black the federal government was not interested in doing the right thing, they were being made an example of, or that it was an attempt to literally destroy New Orleans as a primarily black city. They wanted everyone else to take care of their problem for them. What hog-wash! In the intervening weeks, every talking head from one special interest group or another has espoused the governmentís responsibility to give people money, rebuild their houses, give people more money, magically create jobs, give people even more money, implement world peace, give people all the money, Ö do you see a trend here??? I want my tax dollars used to help people that need help ñ not those too lazy and/or self-absorbed to try and improve their lot in life. I laugh when I read/see all the politically correct posturing going on and then learn that the majority of those evacuees, that are currently surviving via the work/tax dollars of working Americans, are not interested in manual labor to help rebuild New Orleans. We, as a nation, have created the current situation that exists with the mindset of many New Orleanians ñ continual welfare, handouts, and zero expectations of the recipients has not, isnít, and never will produce productive members of society as the legacy of generations in New Orleans has proven. Thank you Huey Long!

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-19T18:01:38-06:00

ID

134667

Comment

Oh yeah, Tom ñ you obviously have no clue. Many military types donít post ìin the clearî on civilian boards because there are numerous pitfalls waiting for those that do from arrogant elitists looking to stick it to a ìbaby killerî. You are right about one thing though, you can not verify the claim ñ about that, Iím truly sorry. But donít be too upset, unless youíve been there you donít have to worry about bodies that were half buried in the sand because wild dogs dug them up after being tortured/murdered. You donít need to see 5 and 6 year old kids digging through the garbage looking for something to eat. You donít even need to see young Iraqi boys and men floating in a stream after being shot in the head by al Qaeda because they were trying to make something of themselves and help make their country something other than the cesspool that it was previously. Too bad that you can't see the schools that are built, the wells that are drilled, the delivery of electricity to a town that never had it before, the clinics that can support the work of medical personnel and the storage of drugs that fight disease, a sewer/water treatment system so that human waste doesnít get thrown out on the edge of a town or have to be burned, and how about the right to vote and participate in a democracy. It ainít perfect, but itís one heck of a lot more than what they had before ñ the common towns people will tell you that, you just wonít see/hear it from the press. Come on Tom, even you can be wrong, right?

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-19T18:02:57-06:00

ID

134668

Comment

ToL, I have immense respect for folks who serve in the military. I have family members who serve in the Armed Forces. I have helped many military folks find programs that allow them to finish their degrees while they are on active duty. I refuse to defend myself from charges that I ever accused you of being a "baby-killer," or disparaged the work that U.S. soldiers are doing in Iraq, or anything of that nature, because I never made any of those claims. All I said was that I suspect you're not really a member of the military. You should know as well as I do that the online world is full of anonymous B.S. artists who claim to be what they're not, so my advice is that if you're anonymous, it's generally a bad idea to rely on your credentials. You can say you're in the military; you can say that you're a psychiatrist at Bellevue; you can say that you were born a poor black child, just like Steve Martin. I have no real reason to believe any of it, do I? As for the poor: The issue, chief, is not proactiveness. It's confidence. And if you'd spent your entire life in grinding poverty surrounded by people who aren't, I doubt you'd sound all that confident, either. Here's a good rule of thumb: People usually turn out the way they are for a reason. They don't make eye contact because they've been intimidated, they don't say assertive things because they've been crushed, they don't go to college because they've had terrible experiences with education, they don't look for better jobs because they've had terrible experiences seeking employment. This is a fundamental truth of human nature. I hope you never have to live in circumstances where you lose your ability to be proactive, because I've seen it happen to people, and even I, privileged asshole though I am, know it hurts. So let's assume you're telling the truth about Iraq--what you've seen, what you've done, what you've experienced, how it has transformed you, what you've learned. All of that is valid. But no matter what you've experienced, you have no right to judge others. It is generally those who have suffered the most, who have spent their entire lives in neighborhoods we won't drive through in a moving car, who pick up weapons and make your aforementioned liberals into conservatives. If they're not qualified to judge, who the hell else is? Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-19T19:31:21-06:00

ID

134669

Comment

Oh, and here's something to blow your mind: Even if I believed that every poor and suffering person on Earth was poor or suffering due to a conscious decision not to be proactive (and I most certainly don't), I'd still want to help them. I'm not tired of losers because I know that I am a loser. We all are, sweetheart. Some of us are lucky losers and some of us are less lucky losers, some of us hide it better than others, but we're all bundles of dry calcium surrounded by sticky goo, and we're here because we're the descendants of non-sentient creatures who ate the corpses, the eggs, the children, of other non-sentient creatures. Every head of state, every supermodel, every UFC champion, every great novelist, every spiritual leader...they came from slime. Desperate, selfish slime. So don't tell me you're tired of losers; to be tired of losers it to be tired of the human race. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-19T19:36:40-06:00

ID

134670

Comment

Tom ñ Sorry you took offense at what I have come to believe over the years - Iím neither the lost soul nor the devil incarnate that some would make me out to be. I was raised by a father who was born in a 2-room, dirt floored house in Missouri who was the son of a poor miner who worked rather than be ìon the doleî. His sister died after only several days of life because my grandparents couldnít afford the medical attention that she needed. I remember him telling me about the first new pair of pants that he ever owed. He got them when he was 16 and purchased them by working after school in a soda shop and helping clean up at a local boarding house. I remember the particular shame that he felt telling me about a night when his father asked him if he could wear them to some outing that he was going to with my grandmother. He said no to my grandfather because he had spent all the money and barter he had built up to buy them and didnít want to share one of the only things he had that was not previously owned by someone else ñ they were a sign of his hard work and success, however insignificant it may seem today. I remember him telling me about being fired from a job that paid 2 cents a bushel digging potatoes ñ no vacation, no health care, no retirement. My father was a great man who started out poor and made something of himself. He always stressed to me that I set high standards for myself, strive for success, not get caught up in feeling sorry for myself even if I had setbacks, blame others for my lot in life, or forget where I came from. He taught me that a manís word is his bond ñ people donít like liars or those that donít pull their own weight ñ so be honest and work hard. No one can ask more of you than that. One of the most enduring things that he taught me is that life is not fair. No two people are born the same; no two people have the same fortune nor are there any inalienable rights to the same level of success. You are what you make of yourself. We must all learn to deal with the hand we are dealt in life. Was my father as poor as some, yes ñ was he the poorest, no. But I believe, as you stated, that he is one of those that can truly relate to the conditions of those that are poor and has earned some right to have formed opinions and make some judgments about those that are less fortunate. So, how does this relate to me? I was born with neither a bank account nor a family inheritance. I was better off than others because my parents cared, took the time to teach me right from wrong, and didnít expect that it would ìtake a village to raise meî. Those are the kinds of intangibles that I believe are missing in the majority of what we call the poor today. While I was by no means well heeled growing up, I was acutely aware of those around me that had more and I vowed that I would make something out of my life and not rot in my self-pity. Besides, those of us that were poor didnít own multiple TVs, stereo sets, cars, expensive jewelry (save maybe a wedding ring ñ no diamonds), or blame the government because Harvard didnít provide a free-ride scholarship to any of us. Those of us that have succeeded did so because we worked at it ñ some harder than others ñ and today, it shows. But donít think for one minute that I have EVER lost the memories of my childhood or of my fatherís lessons. I have all the compassion in the world for those that cannot provide for themselves and I have given back to those less fortunate. I do not, on the other hand, tolerate well the types of individuals that are not willing to expend the effort to try and better themselves. I find that I tire easily over the endless excuses that are continually offered by this segment of the poor and from the parasitic, quasi-intellectual community that feeds off of these same social misfits.

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-20T20:27:03-06:00

ID

134671

Comment

Part II - I truly believe that the primary problem today is the organized ìsocial experimentersî that exacerbate the plight of the poor. They set up a vicious cycle that, for those that are less mentally astute, seems to be an opportunity, but breeds nothing more than the continued reliance on everyone else to resolve their problems. And the real shame of it all is that Iím beginning to believe the ìexperimentersî may actually be ignorant of the damage that they are creating ñ ìcausesî in and of themselves, can be disastrous. In this case, I believe that the ìcureî being offered may be more deadly than the disease itself. OK, just as a matter of principal, 1) the moniker ìTired of Losersî is a reference to those that continually yell the loudest but are obviously not part of the group of poor being discussed here ñ yes, Iím talking about the social workers (and anyone else that you may want to throw into the pot) that make a living off the pain of others and want to beat up anyone who does not immediately succumb to their supposed intellectual superiority of the subject or challenges their ìcauseî; 2) I did not imply, or at least did not intend to, that you called me a ìbaby killerî though I did get called that on more than one occasion ñ but rest assured, I didnít have a flash-back nor do I suffer from PTSD (that is a medical diagnosis, not self-prescribed), I told the last guy to go screw himself ñ well, maybe using some less than PC verbiage and it was somewhat exhilarating; 3) Confidence ñ thereís a word that has little objectiveness. Confidence is something that hopefully, parents help nurture in their children. But failing that, a responsible adult (yes, that is an entirely different subject) has to develop confidence on his or her own. In our society, we are all expected to participate and play by the rules else we have anarchy. Those that are capable but decide not to join the rest of the mainstream need to be dealt with but not through the reward of that which others strive to achieve. Iím not saying that people donít need to seek help if they are having problems, Iím saying that those that donít care, those that would rather be problem children, those that intentionally express their displeasure through acts of violence, wanton cruelty, etc., maybe those people need a dose of ìtough loveî first to get their attention before you try and mollycoddle them; and last but not least, 4) you dinged me for ìjudgingî others. Yes, Doc, I judge others ñ thatís how we all live, thatís life. We make judgments all day long and will continue to do so until the day we die ñ and in my line of work, thatís kind of important. Some people make better judgments than others. Judgments of situations ñ and most certainly of individuals - have afforded me the remarkably incredible opportunity to step off a plane at Rhine-Main Airbase and kiss the face of the worldís most beautiful woman. For that, I apologize to no one ñ primordial slime, notwithstanding!

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-20T20:30:23-06:00

ID

134672

Comment

Most social workers I know are wonderful people who make a living trying to alleviate the pain of others, ToL. Spoke to one today who had been doing this for decades, and was very clear on the distinction between the "give a man a fish"/"teach a man to fish" concept. And no offense, but your statement of childhood poverty just doesn't convince me. I have no way of verifying it. There are advantages and disadvantages to being anonymous, ToL; one of the advantages is that you can make shit up and nobody will be the wiser, and one of the disadvantages is that you can tell the truth and may as well be making shit up. If you're telling the truth, I'm sincerely sorry. But I have no reason to believe that you are. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-20T21:56:57-06:00

ID

134673

Comment

As for primordial slime, the devil incarnate, etc. etc. etc., let me put it this way: I think we all come from primordial slime. Nobody's smells like roses. I buy into a skewed version of what orthodox Christians call original sin, so when I talk about depravity, I'm talking about yours but I'm also talking about mine. My philosophy is that I'm no better or worse than you, and you're no better or worse than the people you see on TV who strike you as losers. We're all bozos on this bus. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-20T21:59:49-06:00

ID

134674

Comment

I'm going to weigh in here and say that not a whole lot is getting accomplished on this thread. Tired, you make a couple interesting points, but you're delivering them with a hammer against individuals you don't agree with, starting with the "Tired of Losers" bit (note that I shortened your user name, so that you don't seem like a troll before you ever type a comment. I suggest not changing it back). You managed to get a personal insult in your user name! Are we to believe you are here for civilized discussion? You seem to be here just trying to pick a fight, and this is a warning that that isn't what this site is here for. Truth is, you get ugly, and people will get ugly back, so I'm not going to allow that game to go any further than this moment on this thread. Further insults in any direction will be deleted. Please revisit our blog rules. If you have comments about the user agreement, or do not understand the rules, please e-mail me directly. Otherwise, please be respectful of other posters here. Your opinions are welcome, but nastiness is not. This is my only warning.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2005-10-20T22:21:19-06:00

ID

134675

Comment

Well, the point that is interesting to me is his blaming of social workers. Jeez Louise, if I had a nickle for every time someone told me I was responsible for the poor in the country, I'd have ten cents. Now Tom does have a point. WE (by that I mean social workers) DO see the difference between "teaching a man to fish, and giving a man a fish". We are taught what damage enabling someone's dependence can do on the "cycle". Believe it or not, TOL, we actually GO TO SCHOOL and learn that. School that we are priviledged enough to attend. We are also taught the philosophy that you seem to not understand "To meet people where they are." This is evidenced by the long telling of YOUR story (without breaks I might add which makes it REALLY hard to read...hint mother effing hint) which has no bearing whatsoever on the rest of the poor in this nation because it isn't THEIR story. Its yours. Stop judging everybody else based upon it. I mean, its nice and everything. I'm sure your dad was cool...but the longer you judge other people's behavior based upon YOUR personal reality...well, the longer you will be a miserable and angry person. Now, before I went to graduate school for Social Work I had never heard the phrase "meet someone where they are." After two years I learned that statement was going to be the answer to MOST of the questions on exams, including my Master's Level licensure that gives me the legal right to assess people like YOU and "Meet YOU where you are." This means I have to walk into every situation with a client and try to understand their life. Whether that life was being forced into prostitution by an HIV positive mother or being beaten daily by a father....I have to meet them there. Whether that life means the best we can hope is that they will learn to care for themselves in a manner that doesn't require constant hospitalization for mental illness, or a long and sordid jail record. You know WHY I have to do that, TOL? Well, here's why. If I "met" them as someone from a good family who provided me with an education. Someone who was afforded the opportunities in life that gives me a self-supporting income. Well, I'd hate them. Just as you seem to do. See, your life seems like it was great and all...parents that loved you, taught you right from wrong...but it isn't MY reality and it isn't the reality of most people that I work with. I think that seems to be the problem with most people who don't understand the many complicated factors of human development that actual create a personality that is (as Tom said) almost "beaten." I tried to get someone to understand this concept the other day and the ONLY question I could come up with didn't make a lot of sense and isn't going to get most people to understand...but it was the best I could do in a short amount of time without giving a forty-five minute lecture on child development. The statement is this... "If you have never been given a thought to think before, how would you know to think it?" If your whole life no one TOLD you that you were loved, confident, and worthy before....how would you know to think that? As much as it would be cool if we did, we aren't born onto this Earth with some innate sense of our inherent goodness. Some of us are exposed to things that teach us this....a lot of us are not. So, I ask you again. "If you have never been given a thought to think before, how would you know to think it?" As a social worker, my job isn't to hand out food and save the world. It isn't to give money away and take care of everyone. And it DEFINITELY isn't to "live on the backs of the poor". My job is to make sure people can get by until I can get them to a place where I can give them that thought to think.

Author

Lori G

Date

2005-10-21T07:28:16-06:00

ID

134676

Comment

Very well said, Ali. I want to be you when I grow up! And for someone with a social sciences background, I sure was ignorant, until recently, about what it is that social workers do. I figured they were those execrable (what a word!) villains you see on TV and in movies, whose main job is to make kids wards of the state because Scrooge doesn't pay the mother enough money. Actually getting to know social workers (and I know like a half dozen now, since I've gotten a little more active in volunteer stuff) has radically changed the way I see that line of work. Now I see them as kind of professional saints. Without the football gear, of course. Which means, of course, that I will inevitably find a social worker who is a movie villain, and then my idealistic vision of the profession will go down in flames. But for now... Gosh, social workers are cool. Sort of like ministers, but without the whole religion business to distract them. For that matter, most really good ministers I know have had some social work training. And most social workers I know wear collars and perform weddings. No, wait... Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-21T12:52:25-06:00

ID

134677

Comment

ladd - OK, I guess I've overstayed my welcome. Good luck with your website. Tom - thanks for the exchange, it was thought provoking. Ali - you're licensed by the state, that's it. I hope your response wasn't intended to imply that you can make/provide a professional diagnosis (can a non-MD type legally make a diagnosis? My experience says not without the approval of an appropriately licensed MD) based on a textual exchange on a website, is it? Besides, my required lifestyles polygraphs and psychological exams (part of the job) have given me a clean bill of health - I think I'll stick with those assessments if you don't mind.

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-23T01:38:30-06:00

ID

134678

Comment

Tired, understood. And I'm sorry if I was a little harsh in those earlier emails, but you've gotta understand: When you say the poor and when you say social workers, I'm not thinking of ideas. I'm thinking of specific people I know and care about, and that always gets my Irish up. Feel free to email me anytime if you'd like to discuss this further. I'm a tardy correspondent, but I do read everything that comes into my inbox, provided that my mail client doesn't filter it out as spam. Cheers, TH

Author

Tom Head

Date

2005-10-23T01:47:20-06:00

ID

134679

Comment

TOL, I didn't asses you at all. That would be unethical. I said I have that legal right. I also didn't diagnose you with you anything. There are lots of people walking around who have opinions that I disagree with that I don't diagnose with a mental health disorder. Last I checked "miserable and angry" wasn't in the DSM-IV. But, that's beside the point. You didn't comment on ANY of the other points that I talked about.

Author

Lori G

Date

2005-10-23T07:36:28-06:00

ID

134680

Comment

Ali - I didn't respond to your other comments because ladd said to cease and desist. Since this isn't my website, and since he was nice enough not to revoke my posting privileges after 2 warnings, I've decided not to push the issue any longer. I'm with you to a certain degree on the teach-a-man-to-fish concept though - it makes logical sense, at least in certain segments of the population here and abroad, and on paper. Problem for me - and something you might not have experience with - is that I'm part of that societal hammer (euphemistically, of course) that gets to clean up after all the diplomacy and general cajoling has finished/failed. Few people outside of the theater have ANY clue what we have done as a nation to help the Afghans/Iraqis. Not all of it was done perfectly - not by a long shot. But the majority of the people that I have met and worked with/around have been very grateful - especially those that suffered/lost a relative to the regime. I just wish I could see something nearly as fruitful from the non-stop coverage of the Katrina hooligans and social dependents. That's my point - you want to sit and cry after seeing people trying to help themselves in a foreign land and then have to watch/read what our own people say/do. I leave the real work of helping these people to you and others to try and make sense out of what started this whole thread to begin with. As the priest would say at the end of Mass, "The Lord be with you. Go in Peace." Tom - thanks for the response. I read what you said and I respect you for it. I will admit that I pretty much knew that some of my statements would be considered inflammatory and an attack against a certain segment of the mental health profession - sorry. It wasn't my real intent. I'm glad that there are people out there that are ready and prepared to help those that really need the help.

Author

Tired

Date

2005-10-23T12:07:39-06:00

ID

134681

Comment

No, Tired, I said to cease and desist the personal insults and putdowns of other people. That is the part that violates the User Agreement. Respectful discussion, including disagreement, does not. I'm sure you can figure out the difference. If so, please feel free to continue discussing issues.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2005-10-23T12:11:35-06:00